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Generator set up ideas wanted
It would be fairly simple to have a small tank of treated fuel on an enclosed diesel genset in the yard near the house, then have an automated top-up system to keep that tank filled from the inside tanks. They also have the battery to start the genset inside, warm & charged.
Several of my neighbours do it this way, once the genset has run for a few minutes and gets up to temperature, it keeps the onboard tank warm enough to run nearly anything.
One even went so far as to make up a round port on the enclosure, and buy a rubber exhaust hose like the garages have to vent your exhaust outside. When he needs to start the genset he puts the hose from the tailpipe of his pickup into the genset's shroud, after a short time the motor & fuel are all warmed up, then he uses booster cables to start the genset. I assume it would be a PITA if the power went out at 3am, but to each their own.
The only maintenance required is after it's been run, is to drain what's in the tank back into the indoor bulk tank, and refill the genset with treated diesel so it will start easliy next time.
Best of luck.
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Generator set up ideas wanted
Actually Ann, dangerous & (most likely) illegal you !!!
The cost of a transfer switch is nothing compared to what running a genset the way you are doing it COULD cost.
The life, or at the very least a badly burned or otherwise injured linesman......
At the very least find a way to break the neutral / ground bond to the grid.
PLEASE?
Best of luck.
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Generator set up ideas wanted
Grinder, I sure hope that sliding switch doo-dad also has a means of breaking the ground / neutral bond back out to the grid also.
If not you could be putting a linesman, or several of them, at serious risk when you spark up that genset.
In Canada that is an illegal situation.
A setup like that cost a neighbour of mine thousands when the electrical authority cut the lines to his house and made him upgrade his entire house to todays standards before they would reconnect him.
Best of luck.
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Generator set up ideas wanted
Randy, the short answer....... HELL YES !!!
When you flip the main service breaker, you only disconnect two of the three wires between your house and the grid. The third leg, the neutral / ground leg is still hardwired into the grid.
If you energize that third leg, it and the earth itself can generate more than enough potential to fry somebody.
Search back through the threads here using the term "stray voltage" or just Google it.
Best of luck.
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Generator set up ideas wanted
Nope, that won't do it either, only the two "line" conductors go THROUGH the meter, the third conductor, the neutral / ground goes AROUND the meter.
You need a special load transfer type switch gear which simultaneously opens all three conductors.
It used to be done by putting in a second ground rod, and having a special swithc which isolated all three conductors (line 1, line 2 & neutral / ground) leaving BOTH sides of the switch grounded to earth still.
I'm not sure of the legalities down there about that. I suppose if you ask your local electrical authority they should be able to let you know the best way to do it.
Best of luck.
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Ann, with all due respect, I THINK you misread the statements & information.
"If you install a single phase TS, remember that the neutral to ground bond needs to be isolated just as a subpanel would be.
--------------------
Pierre Belarge
Instructor & Industry Advocate"
Notice the word "isolated" ? What he is saying is that if you do NOT have a three pole TS, you need to isolate the neutral to ground bond. In other words, with a single phase TS, you must mechanically break the neutral / ground bond, a neutral switching TS does it for you.
Grinder, the problem all arises from the old "go with what works for the biggest percentage" theory. In a purely electrical engineering manner of thinking, bonding the neutral to the ground (earth) is dumb. However, if they didn't they would still have problems, just different problems that's all.
The problem is a little too complex to put easily into crayon. Google search "stray voltage" or "transient voltage" and do a little reading, if you don't get a headache I guarantee you will at least sleep well tonite.
Best of luck.
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Ann, I must again disagree, you are co-mingling TWO DIFFERENT hazards and coming up with one answer.
What you are talking about is ground fault.
If you have a generator with no ground, and then open the ground neutral bond at the service entrance, you will have an electrified house with no ground at all! Further in fact, you will have disabled all the GFCI circuits, so now you have the very real possibility that someone is holding a defective electrical appliance in the bathroom, and reach out to turn on the water. Guess what? That person just became a path to ground via the water pipe!!!!
In this situation, yes, leaving the neutral / ground bond is mandatory, if only for the safety of people in the house. But it will potentially still be very dangerous somewhere else.
What I am talking about is Transient Voltage.
No matter what the ground system is in your generator, the neutral & ground wires are bonded together at the electrical service entrance to your house, if you then open the two load lines and power up a generator, you ARE creating a voltage potential in the neutral / ground line. PERIOD.
It does not matter where the ground / neutral bond is made, generator or panel, it is still there, and the genset will still create voltage potential somewhere down the grid.
Ann, can you explain to me why you say I am wrong in this?
Grinder, burn down the house, no, definitely not, a linesman, possibly could get a jolt, anything between "Oh sh#$" and fry, no way to tell until it happens. Some places allow the use of something called a "gang switch", basically a big handle which activates 3 separate switches simultaneously. Before this can be used however, it is critical that a second ground rod be installed so that the wiring in the house remains grounded after the neutral / ground bond is broken by the gang switch.
Best of luck.
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"All this talk of backfeeding the utility (and presumably killing a lineman) is really not relevant here. Backfeeding is not possible even if neutral remains connected in the transfer switch (as is sometimes required) if the hot lines are switched (as required in all situations) and neutral is grounded at one location only (service entrance)."
HORSE ........ APPLES!!!
If you take 4 metal rods and drive them in the ground in a wide circle, then measure between them you will see a voltage potential between, them, small, but measureable. Anytime you have multiple paths to earth you will have a measureable voltage potential between them, this is EMF induced, the further it is between two points, the more the potential, this is why the NEC requires so many ground rods in the grid. When you introduce an inductive source like a genset, then use the ground wire as a current carrying conductor, you just amplify the problem.
"As a minor asside on this issue I challenge any readers out there to demonstrate how a circuit could be completed that could injure or kill a lineman when the neutral line remains connected to the utility and connections are made according to code."
On March 8, 2005 a dog was electrocuted while lifting it's leg on a metal lamp-post in Maryland. The cause was stray voltage, after looking into the situation the utility offered the family $200k, they are demanding $740k., the matter is before the courts.
A lady was electrocuted while walking her dog in NYC when she stepped on a ConEd manhole cover. The cause was stray voltage, after looking into the situation ConEd discovered that this was a situation that affects 0.05% of it's manhole covers, in NYC that amounts to 130 manhole covers capable of killing a person.
"It's a technical issue and hard to understand."
Apparently it is.
Best of luck.
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"A quick thought would seem that turning off the main breaker would make the power lines safe with a generator powering the circuits of the house."
No, that's exactly my point, the neutral & ground are permanently bonded together, and even bypass your meter that way. As long as there is electricity in the house, you are creating a VOLTAGE POTENTIAL outside of your house in the grid as well unless you disconnect the ground wire between the grid and your house, leaving of course, the ground rod as part of your houses circuit.
"....there is about 17 volts (the last I heard) between the ground wire and the ground rod at our Church."
That's exactly the problem. You can have voltage potential in a supposedly 'dead' line.
Everybody seeems to forget one small detail, the ground & the neutral in your house are bonded together, and the neutral is a load carrying 'leg' of any circuit, therefore there is a (up to) 220 volt potential in your ground circuit.
Best of luck.
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Ann, in every single one of the CODE COMPLIANT diagrams the neutral & ground are bonded at the main panel.
If in ANY of those diagrams, 1, 2, 5 & 6, and with the generator running, you put a meter between the neutral line outside the house, and the earth itself, you WILL measure a potential across those two points.
Further, if you were to run an extension cord out some distance from the house, and again measure between the neitral leg, and the earth, you might be surprised to see just how much potential voltage & current you would find.
"Using the web link I posted, would you be so kind as to indicate the number of the CODE COMPLIANT diagram in which, as you suggest, the ground wire is being used a current carrying conductor. "
Every one of them, the neutral wire in any house is a current carrying conductor, the AMOUNT of current is NORMALLY extremely low in the ground circuit though, since it takes the path of least resistance, the neutral leg.
Want proof, put on some heavy leathe gauntlets, top up your life insurance, disconnect the neutral wire from a 3 prong receptacle, then plug something in and see if you don't still have 120 volts and more than enough flow to power an appliance.
As was stated so well by jdcman "However it is a fact that in order for electrons to flow there needs to be a path. And sometimes humans are in the path and bad things happen."
The electricity takes the path of least resistance, but it does and will travel, if one path is the neutral leg of the grid, and a second path is a linesman or other unfortunate individual, "bad things happen.".
Ask any farmer with cattle, they are about 50 times more sensitive to voltage than humans, I've seen them stand in a circle around a water trough, not drinking, because of a few transient volts from a stock tank heater or some other source.
Best of luck.
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KT, I think the part of the equation you missed was "3 prong receptacle", in this case the ground will act as the neutral because they are joined together.
The ground & neutral are joined together remember? A path is a path.
Take a volt meter, unplug a 220v. appliance and measure between L1 & L2 in the receptacle, 200 volts right?
Now measure between L1 & ground, and L2 & ground, it will read 110 volts in each case, because the neutral & ground are bonded together. Thus the ground will certainly act as the other conductor.
Best of luck.
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This is getting stupid now, it's no longer debating, it's knee-jerk argueing, saying 'no' just for the sake of having something to say.
Ann, do you know how to read a schematic?
If the neutral and the ground are joined together how can you make a ludicrous statement like "Diagram 2 - no connection between utility neutral and generator neutral (neutral isolated in transfer switch) therefore no capacity to generate potential between utility neutral and anything (as a result of the generator)." All of a sudden they invented one-way wires?
As soon as you power your house you will have potential in both the neutral & ground wires, period.
"In this scenario you have violated code by establishing a connection between house neutral and ground at some point in addition to that at the service entrance..."
So it's illegal now to run an extension cord outside of your house and set down an appliance with a steel frame and a grounded case, like a battery charger for your vehicle?
Let's stay with reality here folks.
Billy, no not possible, without a generator (or some other second source) you would have no differential created.
The whole (potential) problem is in having a voltage potential in a supposedly "dead" circuit.
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Please stop the "saying no for the sake of hearing myself speak" routine and read the thread, I've answered several times now.
Or better yet, stop reading, and do as I said, get a meter and try it for yourself.
BTW, do you know that in THEORY bumble bees cannot fly?
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Ann, debating is NOT the same as insulting by any stretch of the definitions.
I would not insult ANY other person without very great provocation, and it would certainly be followed by regret on my part. I do not believe you are a stupid person, and would not stoop to baseless accusations merely for the sake of blowing off steam, I DO get steamed at times, but thankfully was blessed with a goodly share of patience to temper it.
We do agree then on one point at least, there is no place in a forum such as this for personal attacks.
If nothing else, I hope I can remain as my forefathers before me, a gentleman.
Best of luck.
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First of all, the term 'backfeed' is very misleading. "It can create an unsafe voltage potential in the neutral conductor." is a more appropriate way of saying it.
"In reverse of that if I don't have a generator and I turn off my main disconnect and do not break the neutral then I can get shocked in my own home." No, without a second source there is no possibility of a voltage potential being generated.
The problem is potential between the neutral / ground conductor and true ground, the earth or some second source to ground.
Unless your house has a dirt floor you have no worrys.
Best of luck.
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It is not 'backfeed' per se, it is a potential in the neutral / ground conductors, without a second path it is an open circuit.
If you managed to get between the neutral in your house and true earth ground, yes the possibility exists. That is one of the reasons for GFCI circuits where that is possible, like around plumbing or outdoors.
Best of luck.
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It sounds more likely that the problem was the wiring in your old place.
On an A/C motor it reversed directions when you moved it? That means the power supply was reversed also. That explains why you blew a breaker grounding it too, you would have been putting a live wire to ground.
Lucky all it did was blow a breaker ........
Best of luck.
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I am NOT an Electrical Engineer, but do have a reasonable understanding of them.
In an AC motor direction is controlled by the way the fields are energized, which in turn controls the order in which fields are created and collapsed. By reversing the order, you reverse the direction the motor spins.
So far so good, now, there is a second way to reverse a motor, a very dangerous way, that is to reverse the connections, ie, swap the hot for the neutral, this will also reverse the direction in which the fields build and collapse.
This is why I said there may have been a wiring fault in the location it was in previously. The only two ways to reverse a motor are to change the wiring, or the polarity, if you didn't change anything but the location of the compressor then the other wiring HAD to be different, ie, reversed polarity. That is why you can now ground the case without tripping the breaker.
Best of luck.
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I was thinking three phase, and that is what I was referring to, now that I re-read it I see it was a single phase motor, sorry for any confusion.
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I think this whole matter has been a little over-blown.
It is a safety issue, yes, but it's one of those odds game thing. It's a one in several millions type thing, but it IS a risk.
I prefer my odds at one in zero, I don't take unnecessary risks, period.
As a very old friend of the family, and lifelong hunting partner said to me one year when we spotted a bear ambling down the trail towards us "It's one black bear in ten thousand that will attack a human, and that is ONE bear, and I don't care what number he is.".
Best of luck.
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