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Hot Water Heating
I don't know what the problem is with Ken's Geothermal. I use the pellet stove in the winter as I was heating for less than $90 per month. The max electric bill I have had for the house in $160. I have 2 teen agers, electric hot water and oven so I suspect the base without heat or cooling is $70. Are you loosing temperature on the water? I have that problem as I need to increase capacity.
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According to the three companies that have investigated there is nothing wrong with our geothermal system. All the pressures and thermodynamic values are within spec. So either the energy projections were wrong, or the energy savings are hype, or the unit is junk or all of the above. It's not the house, blower door and duct blaster tests have proven that. Even if the projections were correct the payback would have been 20 years. As it is the unit will never pay for itself, especially since we have to retrofit additional heat to keep the house comfortable. The only way I'd make that investment again is if the company would guarantee savings with cash penalties for non-performance.
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Peters, was that question about losing water temperature directed at me? I checked the loop temperature and pressure last week. It appeared normal - loop water temperature of 46 degrees and pressure of 80 lbs. Loop temperature drops as the season wears on which is probably normal. The first year the unit had a bad TXV and the loop temperature was 31 degrees. That was an expensive year for heat.
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Ken thanks for the info i will have to check into this deeper. so far all i heard was positive feedback it's good to get another point of view. what type, (brand) of system do you have?
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It's a Waterfurnace model ATO52 three-zone system, desuperheater for hot water and two stage auxiliary heat (which sucks up a lot of power on the coldest of days). I've had independent kwh loggers on the three circuits feeding the heat pump for years, and it consistently uses 120% more electricity than the pre-sale estimates that were prepared by Waterfurnace. Every time I think about this system it pisses me off. I may end up talking to a lawyer about it. One piece of advice - if ground source units aren't common in your area then DON'T GET ONE. As it is now for us the installing dealer dropped Waterfurnace and the nearest dealer is 600 miles away.
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Ken, what is your base ground temperature? Mine is 60 degrees so that may make a difference. I would think yours is 50 something. Ideally you should not get any drop or increase in base temperature over the season. But yours sounds reasonable.
I looked at Waterfurnance and was not impressed. There must be something wrong with compressor or heat exchanger. My unit blows about 120 degree or more air when running. With the temperature down to 28 last night it only kicked on a few times in the morning. This is with the pellet stove on low.
Ken, what system did you find to run under the floor? Have you got a link?
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Ground source units aren't at all common in this area so we went with WaterFurnace because there were two dealers. We went with the dealer with the best references. Now there are no dealers and we have an orphan. Our supply air temp is nowhere near 120 degrees, last time I measured it was less than 80 degrees with the compressor running on high speed. Extremely poor. No idea who I can go to for an unbiased analysis, so I really feel like hiring a lawyer to write a letter to the installing dealer, WaterFurnace and the loop guy. But I'm whining. I'd estimate the ground temp to be in the 50's too but haven't measured.
As far as radiant heat, I was thinking of going through radiantec dot com. A friend of mine used their stuff in a garage with overhead apartment he built and he was really happy with their product and support and got great results.
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Ken, to determine the ground temp. I measured an artisan well here. I know the temp in Vancouver is 50 as I measured cooling water one day from the mains.
I did not add the aux. heat as I had the pellet stove.
Something must be wrong with the unit. I would fight with Waterfurnace.
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Waterfurnace won't talk to me. They ignored the letter I wrote to the president of the company, and when I call I always get directed to the distributor, who always directs me to the same guys who have been her a dozen times already. Maybe they'll talk to a lawyer. I know for a fact that the loop was not installed per spec, but the loop guy swears it will meet requirements. Maybe I'll start there. I've had three different companies look at the unit and all swear it is operating correctly.
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Hey Ken,
These WaterFurnace guys claim a 400% efficiency spec, I had come across this ad sometime back and dismissed it as “flubby” dust when they never responded with a system data sheet. Maybe I’ll try them again.
I assume you got one since you installed their system … how many BTU’s is your system?
After seeing your post I thought about it a little further and now I wish I could see a data sheet … but I applied their web claims to my house --- consider the following:
My current air handler, (approx. 40K BTU system), draws about 50 amps at 230 volts, or approx. 11.5 KWH. So according to their claim, (given a matched output), their combination of heat exchanger / pump and whatever other electrical stuff is on would only draw approx. 29 watts. For argument sake, assume that this all goes to the pump, this equates to approx a 1/26 hp pump --- .
I must be missing something. I’m of course making the assumption that the system would require a pump motor combo closer to at least a one hp motor rating which is going to require approx 750 watts, it certainly would be larger than 1/26 hp.
Do they talk at all about the gals/min of fluid exchange? Can you see the motor in your unit? What does the nameplate say?
This analysis completely ignores the aux coils. As far as I can tell the efficiency claims don’t seem creditable.
But this doesn’t explain why your system doesn’t heat the house.
I haven’t seen a description of your collection field … what type did you have installed? Who sized the system … are you sure they did what they claimed.
Interesting topic, something I’ve consider doing, please keep us posted.
Regards and Good luck
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