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 03-03-2004, 12:22 Post: 78619
DennisCTB



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 Geothermal heating cooling

Another followup to one of my previous points:

Peters is happy and is in Alabama

I am in western NJ at 1100 feet elevation in NW NJ.

I see you are in Wisconsin, I think you have me beat on cold. I think you should check with some users in your state to see how they are making out.






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 03-03-2004, 12:37 Post: 78622
shortmagnum

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 Geothermal heating cooling

Until now I've only had my sister and BIL's system for comparison. I don't think they have had any trouble with theirs. They have had to pull their deepwell pump twice in the time they've had theirs going but other than that I don't think there has been any problem with the unit. They actually live an hour north of me so they could be colder.
Dave






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 03-03-2004, 12:44 Post: 78624
kwschumm



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 Geothermal heating cooling

I'm at 1100 feet in Oregon so I suspect it is a little colder here than at Peter's house in Alabama. He is right about the installation being critical, but how can you be sure they will do a good job? WaterFurnance sure hasn't backed me up with our problems. I checked references, BBB reports, etc before signing and all feedback was good. Anyway, as far as I know none of our problems are due to installation. Duct pressure tests and blower door tests prove the ductwork and the house to be very tight. The failures on the unit have been electrical and factory defects (TXV Valve). Everybody I've had out has concluded the unit may be marginally undersized for the house, but it was sized by WaterFurnace who had access to our blueprints and they sure aren't interested in standing behind their work.






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 03-03-2004, 15:51 Post: 78654
Peters

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 Geothermal heating cooling

As stated it is critical that you know what the mean ground temperature is in the are. If you have a deep well and can measure the temperature of the water it helps.
I am sure the type of soil helps. I have fine clay that is nearly 40% iron oxide. I can not think of a better heat sink except maybe water.
If you can place the pipe in a deep pond it would be best. Size the unit so you can heat the whole house and make provision so be able to add more pipe in the ground if you are loosing temperature of ground water.
I would get a IR gun so you can measure the temperatures of the incomming and exiting pipes.
I would suggest getting a natural gas contractor to install the pipe. You do not need to cut trenches as large as the bucket. A trencher will work as well.
I do not recommend crossing lines.






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 03-04-2004, 00:28 Post: 78718
dkheckmanl



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 Geothermal heating cooling



We put in a geothermal system when we built our new house here in SE Idaho{completed Nov 15 04}. Our system is a Hydro Heat which I think is built by Lennox. Anyway the Lennox dealer installed it. We went with it because N.G. was not available in our area other wise we would have gone with NG for heat. So far we have been happy with the hydro heat. We have a 2640 sq ft single level house. We keep the temp at 72 during the day and 65 at night. It does a little while to heat up in the morning but not long {probably 30 min). We do have a propane fire place which we some times burn in the evening for a couple of hours. Our monthly electric and heat bill for December and January averaged about $155. Our propane bill for the fireplace averaged about $40./month. I am quite happy to get by for just under $200./month for both electric and propane. I did hear our neighbors put in a geothermal system. It was not the same brand as ours but I can not remember the name. I guess it took them some time before they got the bugs out.

So far I have no regrets.
Good luck with what ever system you go with.
PS: Average low temp here in SE ID for Dec and Jan was around 18-22 degees degrees and the average high was about 37-39 degrees.






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 03-04-2004, 00:46 Post: 78721
JParker

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 Geothermal heating cooling

I'm surprized Ken wasn't taking bets on how long before I put my $0.02 in on this one.

I have designed a decent number of geothermal systems, but will admit to rather limited experience with horizontal installations. What I have seen, read in the trade, and learned from trying to help Ken strongly suggests sticking with known, independently tested ground exchanger designs.

Ken's contractor had a home brewed concept with no 3rd party test data to check it against. I think Ken got short changed, but can't prove it. It also seems like the unit may be a little small for the house and climate. Recovery time is a function of unit size vs. load.

Add some hardware issues with what was a new technology at the time (2 speed compressors) and I don't blame him for being bitter. I really would have hoped Waterfurnace would have stepped up to the plate on the equipment side, but apparently they haven't.

It's a lot like the discussions we keep coming back to here about tractors and dealers. Usually any of the name brand machines are fine to own, but having a good dealer and in this case a good installer very important.

If you have the room to go horizontal, be sure to spread it out, get it all in as deep as possible and limit the number pipes in one trench. The whole concept is transferring heat to and from the earth, so keep the pipes away from each other. If you can do your own trenching, I wouldn't even consider any more than a 2 pipes / trench design. Spread the trenches at least 25 feet apart if you need multiple trenches, and keep everything at least 4 feet down. That's how to have an efficient system.

In extreme climates, either very heating dominant or very cooling dominant, the system efficiency will go down compared to a nicely balanced load. A correctly done ground exchanger design should take that into account.

If you have cheap fuel available (oil, gas, propane) don't even consider geothermal. But if you are stuck with electric, and want to invest some money now to save it later, it may be worth looking at.

I consider ground water too precious a resource in most areas to think about an open system, but they have a lot of advantages in first cost and constant temperature if you have the water supply. Looking at run time the well pump life may be normal. Think of how much the pump run time changes if you use a couple of gpm / ton the whole time the unit is running.

Geothermal isn't a cure all technology. But it can be a good technology when correctly applied. Get an IGSHPA certified designer and installer and be sure they stick to a proven design. Also, be sure they don't undersize the equipment. An undersized AC unit can't catch up in a heat wave either.

More than enough said.

- J Parker






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 03-04-2004, 08:00 Post: 78746
shortmagnum

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 Geothermal heating cooling

Thanks for all the responses. I would guess that for winter heat, the depth of the exchange pipes in a closed system would be critical. If they're buried four feet down and the frost line is also four feet then you wouldn't get much, if any, exchange. The heat pump would run and run with little efficiency. I'm starting to wonder if even five feet deep is enought to get the ground temp up to the 50 degree range in mid winter. Because they take water from deep down could be why the open systems seem to perform better. I wouldn't consider an open system either.
Dave






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 03-05-2004, 23:57 Post: 78965
JParker

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 Geothermal heating cooling

Check into local drilling prices for a vertical closed loop system. That's all we do commercially. You're right, I don't think in areas with a deep frost line that you can get a horizontal down deep enough to really be worthwhile unless you put in a lot of pipe.

Still it's more efficient to pull heat out of 35 degree water than 5 degree air.

- JP






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 03-06-2004, 00:22 Post: 78969
HuckMeat

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After lots of research, I've elected to install geothermal. I'm still breaking ground, but have learned a lot. There are a lot of folks on this board with good and bad experience, and they can help you learn a lot. Listen to these guys, because their experiences will help you. I know they helped me be sure to ask the right questions. A bad design/install will definitly cause problems.

I think the installer is the key - 10x more so than your tractor dealer being important. If you want to wing it, you can buy a geothermal system on ebay. If you really want it done right, I think you need a geothermal guy who can properly design your system and guarantee to stand by it. Get it in writing, so you have recourse if the system does not perform as promised. The guy I selected will back his models and designs, predecting my energy usage for the next 2 years. Before I signed, he gave me all the detail on his design for my house, loop temperature assumptions, safety (overage factors) etc. I am installing geothermal sourced radiant that also power AC.

I'll let everyone know how it works in 6 months. But anyway, even in my research and interviews here, I found a vast difference in the quality of geothermal folks. Some are former HVAC guys with a backhoe, and some really know what they are doing. If you soil and loop area aren't just right, you probably ought to have the expensive vertical wells. A good geo guy can tell you this, and make a site evaluation. If he hasn't looked at the soil before selling you a system, you're with the wrong guy.

Good luck. I'm looking forward to cheap bills and good heat, hopefully I've made a good decision.

During my research, I visited a house under construction to view an identical system. a 6 ton unit was heating a 8500 sf house with the front door open(construction workers in/out), comfortably, in 20 degree weather. Had been doing so the entire winter. Their loop field was 6 170' deep bores grouted with a thermally enhanced grout.






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 03-06-2004, 09:32 Post: 78993
kwschumm



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HuckMeat, it certainly sounds like you've done your homework and I certainly hope your system works to your expectations, but there are no guarantees.

I have energy predictions in writing, too. My loop installer has 20 years of experience and was recommended by the manufacturer too. The installer, dealer, and manufacturer all had good references and I visited owners who were happy, including some of my relatives who live next to the Indiana WaterFurnace factory. None of it helped though, and the only recourse I have now is to sue - which would cost me more than just trashing the system.






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