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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Chris, don't take me wrong I have only your interest in mind.
I remodel for a living and see these problems all the time.
If you have water/moisture issues they MUST addressed asap.
Go after the guy who did this, Take lots of pictures bedore during and after. The guy screwed you up. Wheather he meant it does not matter, he is responsible, he is the pro. You
may be able to leave your ceilings depending on what was done?
If they are alright knief the wall the the top and leave the ceiling. Try one room, repair it and make sure that the
new process cures your problem.
Good luck, get some legal advice.
Don't wait the smell is hard to get rid of even after you fix it, if you wait too long.
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Chris, don't take me wrong I have only your interest in mind.
I remodel for a living and see these problems all the time.
If you have water/moisture issues they MUST addressed asap.
Go after the guy who did this, Take lots of pictures bedore during and after. The guy screwed you up. Wheather he meant it does not matter, he is responsible, he is the pro. You
may be able to leave your ceilings depending on what was done?
If they are alright knief the wall the the top and leave the ceiling. Try one room, repair it and make sure that the
new process cures your problem.
Good luck, get some legal advice.
Don't wait the smell is hard to get rid of even after you fix it, if you wait too long.
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Like everyone else I am learning about this and am not sure what the answer is, put I will try and contribute what I know.
Closed cell foam will provide a tight vapor barrier like PE film. The migration of water through the barrier will be slow at best. They recommend that you fill the cavity so inner and outer barriers prevent water penitration. See link below. This is a company I have been consulting with.
If a house is this tight you need to install an air to air exchanger to clean the air and move the moisture out of the house.
I think you problem is mostly due to the water in the house from paint, new wood, foam and dry wall and the weather. If you did not allow weeks for the drywall to dry and painted it the water in the drywall and the mud probably condensed on the foam. The Gypsum, hydrated calcium sulfate looses a lot of water once it is on the wall. Has anyone considered the weight of a new dry wall sheet and that of one removed in a remodel? I think is it about 1/2 the weight. My dry wall contractor would not paint for 3 weeks after installation.
This is a big continent and one solution does not fit all in building. As Murf states an interior and exterior vapor barriers are required in Canada, but contractors routinely slit the interior barriers in southern BC to prevent problems after inspectors have approved.
The problem is where is the dew point in the wall and which direction is it moving. If the interior is warm and moist and the outside is cold and dry. The dew point is in the center of the wall and moving from the inside to the outside. If the outside is warm and moist and the interior cooler and dryer the moisture is moving from the outside into the wall.
PVC wallcovering can create that barrier in the south and trap condensation on the back side in the wall. This is also the problem in southern BC. I worked to create wallcovering that was a semipermiable membrane like Tyvek to correct this problem.
I think the best solutions are ICF where the dew point is in the center of the concrete wall most of the time or SIPs panels with galvanized steel on both sides. I have seen problems with OSB or laminate on SIPs over time.
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Chris -
Like everyone here, I too feel for your dilemma. I guess I am from the old school...that is, I feel comfortable with the old tar paper on the exterior over the sheathing, and my Owens Corning rolled R19 (or whatever rating) fiberglass insulation in the walls, covered by not one but two layers of sheetrock.
Some may be wondering why two layers. By applying the second layer practice, not only does one get a more airtight seal around the typical cold air leak points, however your wall strength increases as well. For instance, instead of using a single 1/2 inch sheet of sheetrock, use two 3/8 inch sheets, that are are fixed to the studs opposite from one another. First layer runs horizontal, second or top layer runs vertical - it really ties the wall together, and alleviates the potential for any cracks to appear later on down the road, besides keeping the house warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer.
Anyway...that is what I do up here where it usually gets around -30 F in the winter season, and up to 100+ in the summer.
As far as the insurance and the like, DON'T wait to get legal assistance in getting action from the contractor. One doesn't need to feed him to the wolves just yet, rather flex the muscle , so to speak.
Insurance wise, -most- Homeowners insurance policies today, now have provisions standard written in, concerning mold and moisture damage. Many offer up to $10,000 - $15,000 without quibble worth of repairs. Check with your Insurance agent for your provisions - I know when my policy renewed one year a while ago, I was surprised to have read that.
- Willie H
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Chris, I hope everything works out with your situation. As I read the thread, I recalled a company that I had done some research on a few years ago, they recomend the exact instalation process that you have. They even have a video where a guy sprays a inch of foam then puts unfaced batt insulation on top of it in the stud cavity. The best I can recall they had a decent Tech dept, and they responded to my questions quickly. I opted not to purchase from them and my shop is still uninsulated
they were operating under a different name but I think they are going by the name of Tiger Foam, if not they are using the same video. I will attempt to attach the web page, best of luck.
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
I wanted everyone to know the latest on our situation with condensation in the wall cavity. As of last week, all the walls are bone dry. A company called Werner was hired to use negative air pressure and an industrial-size dehumidifier to dry out each room individually. The company specializes in drying out houses for situations like ours, or when fire sprinklers turn on and saturate the house. They shine an infrared gun at the walls which is calibrated for humidity and condensation. Therefore, they can guarantee the walls are dry. Looking under the drywall, the insulation is back to normal, dry, and unsettled. The insulation company is giving us a contract, guaranteeing that they stay dry each winter, or they will replace the insulation, and pay for any drywall or paint repair. They all stepped up to the plate after they did their research. Talking with insulation specialists and research scientists showed that the walls were victim to extreme humidity levels (which many houses face during construction with all that mud, texturing and paint, brand new drywall) and then the temp dropped to minus 10 for one week causing the condensation. All houses would get water in the walls (except ICF, or SIP panels, or solid cavity foam)with this scenario. Most would have soaked into the OSB, and dried out over 2 or 3 months. Our one inch of foam will let vapor threw, but not water in its liquid state. The research shows the walls will breath. We have an air exchanger, and this will keep the humidity correct, allowing the walls to stay dry even through a cold winter. I wish the HVAC guys would have hooked it up during the mudding and painting. Thanks for all your information, and I finally feel like things are back to normal. I feel like I have talked to every insulation specialist in the country. One thing I can take from this, is that what works in Florida, will not work in Minnesota, and southern Iowa falls somewhere in between.
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Chris -
Glad to hear that things are working out. It sounds like you have done an extreme amount of research since last posted - good for you that you were able to find such info, and, a contractor / company that knew what they were doing.
Question: You mentioned that you have an air exchanger to keep the humidity levels a constant. If you lose the exchanger for one reason or another, can you expect that the walls will "refill" so to speak?
Will this happen each and every time the conditions are to change, or was this merely a coincidental element with the moisture from the mudding process?
Sometimes with an air exchanger, it creates a negative in the house so extreme, that if you wanted to light a fire in the stove for instance, it would not stay lit. I hope in the cold where you are, this will not be a concern.
- Willie H
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
I am happy to here you have some resolution. I hope our input was some help. Like I said in my post I am still learning more about this. I was up at the maker of TYPAR house rap, BBA on Thursday last week. Now I am sorry I used TYVEK on my house and garage.
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Willie, we will have a humdistat to monitor the humidity levels, so they stay correct (I have to research the recommended level, but it is somewhere between 30-40).
The house was over 60% humidity after all the mudding and texturing, etc. The air exchanger will keep the house from getting stale, keep unwanted odors and smells from building up, and keep humidity under control. The only way this would happen again, is if we installed a swimming pool or a big mamma hot-tub! Any wall that is not solid foam, ICF or a SIP panel can get a trace amount of condensation when the temp drops to minus 10 or so. (but not to the amount of what we faced, and this wall system can still breathe slowly) It would have cost another $4500 to do the house entirely in foam, (not including the $5000 that was already spent to foam the rim joist, heels of the trusses, and the one inch skim coat). And that doesn't include the price of the ceiling to r-40 and the garage.
ICF construction would have cost an additional $40000! The sky is the limit on how much you want to spend. I tried to get somewhere in the middle. We already spent an additional $9000 upgrading to 5 ton geothermal (with a 6 ton loop). Then another $1600 on the air exchanger. All in the matter of saving energy, and knowing we will be in the house for a long time. I am sure in 10 years there will be other options for efficiency, such as solar panel shingles (currently not cost effective) or wind generation. You just hope you made the right decisions.
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help water condensating in the wall cavity-
Chris -
I guess one could spend as much as one wanted or as little as one wanted, relative to the extreme of effiency that one wants to go - Lord knows the costs can REALLY climb.
(Quite obviously, you do too)
My Uncle moved into another house awhile back. It was outfitted from day one (maybe 15 years old) with a solar heat/water exchange unit in the basement, with copper tubing running to and fro the collector panels on the roof line. He also has an oil burner as secondary, as well as a wood burning fireplace.
More often than not, I would say about once a year, usually when it started to get cold, the exchanger control board would need replacing - about $450.00 each and every time. Then, the roof needed to be replaced (shingles that is). What a friggin nightmare to execute the removal and replacement. All the solar hardware had to come off first, then the roof work, then the solar panels and piping had to be reinstalled etc etc.
By the time all was said and done, the efficiency / cost effectiveness was costing THEM everytime they turned around.
Then one day, a guy stopped over and asked about buying the complete set up. They did sell it to the guy, but once again, another nightmare, as all the antifreeze lines had to be evacuated first, then the exchanger (big heavy mother)in the basement had to be brought out. On top of this, the solar panels had to be removed from the roof - very gingerly. Then they had to insure that the roof was not damaged from the removal, so the now purchaser had to contact the roofer again, and the story goes on and on, but you get the picture I'm sure.
Needless to say, they are tickled that they rid themselves of this system. I am sure that improvements have been made to the systems since this vintage, but it would be a cold day... before I would contemplate putting it in to my house.
As you mentioned, the costs for the insulation / process is very costly. I had no idea that it cost THAT much these days.....maybe it is time I moved to Brazil...all I would need there would be an umbrella and bug spray!  (maybe a round or two of ammo too)
Keep it warm and dry -
- Willie H
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02-25-2006, 05:37 
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