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Back-up power
Murf: I was thinking along those lines because I went to exercise the generator several days ago and the battery was dead. Well, maybe a four year old box store battery might be shot but I think it probably froze in the -30F weather we had after this thread started. Warm batteries are good. I'd have to dig up my underground feed to do what you did though, but I guess I could use utility AC that's already in the shed to keep it warm and reason that the battery wouldn't get real cold before I noticed that I have to start the generator.
Jerry: You use the regular 220V outlet for equipment designed that current. The equipment likely would be already wired with a plug for the smaller 220V circuit. Using the full-power output would be like sticking a larger fuse in a circuit to keep the fuse from blowing. Somebody running a power saw from the full-power output might burn up the motor if they lugged it because the larger circuit breaker wouldn't pop.
Every combination of current and voltage has its own unique sets of plugs and receptacles designed to prevent people from using equipment and extension cords that are intended for applications either greater or lesser than the circuit's breaker protection. Sure is a pain to end up with a piece of rental equipment and then find that it can't be plugged into anything available.
When my generator travels I have an old 100A panel and a flock of receptacles mounted on a piece of plywood and fed from 100' of flex 100A line. I used to use it in the sound/lightning buz when we had to get more AC to a stage. I rewired the board so I now have a receptacle for virtually every plug I'm likely to encounter. I used to drag the board inside the house and run extension cords everywhere before I installed the transfer panel. I figured that was better than back-feeding a stove or dryer receptacle--a common but taboo practice.
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Tom, if you have heavy enough lines from the gen. set to the transfer switch in the house it may be possible to back feed the load lines with 12v. using special solenoids (which cannot transfer if there is 220v. in the mains) to start the genny then they transfer the lines back to 220v. service.
This was the first suggestion of my electrician, but since I had so much space in the conduit I opted for new cabling, especially since it wasn't a long run and I had a couple coils of welding cable I bought at a garage sale for $20 that were the right length. I had thought about rigging some sort of heat, etc., for the battery in the shed, but by putting it in the house I figure it will be more likely (since it's easier) that I will check the water in the cells, etc.
Best of luck.
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Running low voltage 24VAC or 12VDC through the same conduits as 120/240 VAC is frowned upon by many building codes. You are supposed to run the low voltage power and control wiring through a separate conduit. If you live far enough out, building codes may not apply, but it is worth mentioning.
Any wire in a conduit has to have good enough insulation to insulate it against other wires carrying different voltage. But, you do need to be careful. This argument extends to low voltage telephone and computer lines, coax cable used for TV or radio communications, and other such "non-power" wiring runs.
I fully understand the problem of keeping the batteries warm. I keep a bank of batteries for my ham radio. I put them in old ice chests. The plastic case and good insulation works well as a battery box. I have one big Igloo cooler that will hold 4 deep cycle 6 VDC batteries like are used on golf carts. I leave the water drain open on the cooler to allow some venting. In my climate, heat from charging the battery will keep it above freezing, but in worse climates a thermostatic heat tape or small light bulb would keep the temperature high enough.
None of these "heaters" need to draw over about 20W. The heater might also be a small 12VDC lightbulb inside the cooler that is run by the batteries. My battery bank would keep a 5W bulb running continuously for about 1000 hours and would normally be run by a charger. You could even add a themostatic switch to only turn on the light bulb if the temperature got below 40F or so.
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A friend made his own battery 'warmer' keep batteries, removed from vehicles for the winter, from freezing in his unheated (unless he's working) shop.
He made a shallow plywood box slightly larger than the 'footprint' of six batteries, the number he needs to over-winter. He then lined the bottom and (short) sides with 2" styrofoam SM (blue foam sheet) and made little wire 'stands' to hold a peice of heater cable (looks like extension cord, meant to be wrappped around a pipe to keep it from freezing) an inch up off the foam, then poured in 2" of concrete (sand mix, no stone) and trowelled to a real smooth finish inside. The cable is made of special thermo-reactive material, as the temperature drops, its resistance changes, elictricity starts to flow creating resistive heat, as the temp rises, the process reverses and the heat gradually fades to nothing. He claims the total cost was about $20, mostly for the cable, but not including scraps of material already on-hand.
What he ended up with is basically, a well insulated, thermostatically controlled, electrically heated patio slab sitting on the floor. The concrete makes a very effective heat-sink, regulating temperature fluctuations. Most importantly, it can NEVER overheat the batteries and warms them slowly from the bottom, and only makes heat as the temperature dictates, in fact he leaves it plugged in year-round.
Maybe this is something you could for your generator battery Tom.
Best of luck.
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The reason that I went with coolers is because they are acid proof, will catch any spills that might occur when checking electrolyte or adding water, and they insulate against both heat and cold for the batteries. The coolers that I use generally have been discarded for a cracked exterior, broken hinge, leaking lid or other minor problem that make their use for cold beer less than ideal.
The heat tape that you describe sounds like the same thing that I use on plumbing and it is what I was mentioning in my previous post also. These tapes tend to only produce a few watts of heat. Higher power tapes might overheat if not in contact with a water pipe or the concrete that you described. I have one mounted on my water lines that has an electronic thermostat built into the cord that comes on at 39 degrees. It makes 18w of heat. I do not know if it will stand up to a sharp bend if you wrapped it directly around a battery. Anyway, the concrete slap idea certainly has merit.
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The old cooler idea sounds like it would be safe and efficient. I have electric dehumidifiers in my gun safes, they are about 3/4" in diameter and a foot long. They are extremely low wattage and generate enough heat to move the air inside the safe. They are warm to the touch, last indefinitely, and are not likely to break or cause a fire as a bulb can. One of these units inside the cooler battery box would be a simple solution, and they come with a bracket that can be mounted almost anywhere.
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It'd be good if the cooler tops didn't seal very well. Hydrogen from the battery would go to the top and a water drain at the bottom likely wouldn't dissipate the hydrogen.
When I was a kid, we used to punch a small nail hole in the bottom of tin cans, put a little Draino in a pop bottle with water and hold the open end of the can over the bottle top. Hydrogen would displace the air and fill the can. Then, the can could be set on something (usually Popsickle sticks) and a match held to the nail-hole. A small flame would stay over the hole. As the hydrogen burnt, air comes in from the bottom of the can. The ratio of hydrogen to oxygen decreases as oxygen comes into the can. Sometimes but not always the ratio becomes critical and a small explosion pops the can off the ground.
There may be a chance that an old cooler and battery could be a slightly larger version of my former entertainment. Kids like that sort of stuff but there's no recommendation here to try or teach it.
Codes always should be considered and work inspected. There's a good chance that around here low-voltage wiring could run through under-ground conduit along with AC line but all line should be direct burial type. When conduit is used for branch circuits with DB line it's not actually considered a formal electrical raceway anything can be used. I've used 3" rigid drain and even 4" flex drain in inspected work. However, anything that attaches to and enters a structure is a raceway and would be treated differently under code. Even if it's permitted under code, whether it's a good idea or not is another question.
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That's funny Tom, we used to do something along the same line, albeit on a larger scale, as a kid.
Our version involved a propane tank a gopher hole, a spark plug soldered to a LONG length of wire, an old car coil & a 6v. battery. I'll just leave it at that for now......
I personally don't like the idea of a battery on charge or even mechanically warmed in a confined space, but that's just personal taste I suppose.
Best of luck.
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Tom. I envision you as the kind of kid who had a shirt pocket full of pens and pencils and a set of glasses patched with duct tape.
That kid next to you wearing his big brothers pants, dads old belt, a holey T shirt and one toe sticking out of the canvas sneakers would have been me.
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I have never had a problem with hydrogen buildup, but I tend to use old coolers that do not make a perfect seal. Some of the coolers have cracks or holes that caused them to be retired from beverage service in the first place. Hydrogen is a pretty small molecule and will leak through most rubber hoses like helium on a TIG welder, so I doubt that it will stay confined easily, but the points made are good.
I think that I might consider drilling a hole in the top of the cooler lid and installing a couple of L pipe fittings to make a splashproof vent. That combined with the open drain vent should ever keep a problem from happening. My battery boxes are outside. Being outside, the boxes keep the batteries from getting too cold during the mild (20F)winters or too hot in the desert sun.
I use the rod type heaters in my gun safes also. I think that they may put out too much power for a well insulated environment. I have never tested them, but I believe that they do not have thermostats, but I could be wrong. Where I live, the humidity doesn't often get much above 25%, so gun rust is a minor problem.
Earlier in the thread, someone was talking about air cooled motors not heating up. When I was growing up on the farm, I used to ride a dirt bike for checking cattle and so forth even during the winter. Snow kicked up from the front wheel would cool the cylinder and the two stroke would not run well. When the temperature was very cold, I would wrap the fins loosely with aluminum foil to limit the air flow and cooling from snow. This worked well. You have to experiment to find out how much air to restrict. I also notice that diesel tractor trailer rigs use a cover over their radiators in the winter. I suspect that it helps to maintain a proper engine temperature.
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Gas Generator Weather Protecti
04-10-2003, 05:12 
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