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Generator set up ideas wanted
Murf,
Do you know of a company that makes a disconnect that cuts both power legs and the neutral?
If you do not have to cut the neutral, then if all a disconnect cuts is the two power legs, what is the difference in using a disconnect switch and cutting off the main breaker?
kt
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Generator set up ideas wanted
"If you do not have to cut the neutral, then if all a disconnect cuts is the two power legs, what is the difference in using a disconnect switch and cutting off the main breaker?"
Electrically speaking there is none (provided your generator is of the type that would require a transfer switch that did not switch neutral) - unless you want to argue about the direction of electricity flow in the circuit used to connect the generator (like a welder or dryer plug) and the suitability of that setup. The reason that transfer switches are used is so that it is physically impossible to connect the generator to the utility supply (on the hot legs). Accidentally connecting generator L1 and L2 to utility L1 and L2 is extremely dangerous (as I am sure everybody is aware of by now). In addition to connecting the generator to the house supply, transfer switches mutually isolate the utility supply and vice versa when the utility supply is reconnected - they isolate the generator, accidential connection is made impossible.
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Generator set up ideas wanted
This is getting stupid now, it's no longer debating, it's knee-jerk argueing, saying 'no' just for the sake of having something to say.
Ann, do you know how to read a schematic?
If the neutral and the ground are joined together how can you make a ludicrous statement like "Diagram 2 - no connection between utility neutral and generator neutral (neutral isolated in transfer switch) therefore no capacity to generate potential between utility neutral and anything (as a result of the generator)." All of a sudden they invented one-way wires?
As soon as you power your house you will have potential in both the neutral & ground wires, period.
"In this scenario you have violated code by establishing a connection between house neutral and ground at some point in addition to that at the service entrance..."
So it's illegal now to run an extension cord outside of your house and set down an appliance with a steel frame and a grounded case, like a battery charger for your vehicle?
Let's stay with reality here folks.
Billy, no not possible, without a generator (or some other second source) you would have no differential created.
The whole (potential) problem is in having a voltage potential in a supposedly "dead" circuit.
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Holy Smokes! My head is spinning.
Like Dirty Harry said, I know my limitations. I got a licensed electrician from a large and reputable company to SUPPLY and INSTALL a transfer switch for my gen-set. He told me not to run it unless it was hooked to a separate grounding rod.
I paid him $800 for his materials and labor and after this discussion it feels like I got away cheap.
If I had done the work and messed something up I wouldn't be able to hire a lawyer for that same $800 with a wrongful death suit staring me in the face.
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Thanks for identifying the error there - I misspoke (typed) in that bit of the response - it was however not material to my main point. However your comment is revealing for another reason:
"2 - no connection between utility neutral and generator neutral (neutral isolated in transfer switch) therefore no capacity to generate potential between utility neutral and anything (as a result of the generator)."
In diagram 2 Generator neutral and utility neutral are connected, but the connection is through the ground wire even though neutral is isolated in the transfer switch. So EVEN IF the neutral is disconnected in the transfer switch there is still a connection between the two (utility neutral and generator neutral) and this is code compliant. It still supports the position that isolating neutral in the transfer switch is dependent on the wiring in the generator.
"All of a sudden they invented one-way wires?"
These statements dont help the discussion - it's not clear what you mean by this.
"As soon as you power your house you will have potential in both the neutral & ground wires, period."
Please be specific tell us potential between what and what. As in potential between house neutral and utility L1.
The statement I made:
"In this scenario you have violated code by establishing a connection between house neutral and ground at some point in addition to that at the service entrance..."
And your question
"So it's illegal now to run an extension cord outside of your house and set down an appliance with a steel frame and a grounded case, like a battery charger for your vehicle?"
There are three wires in the extension cord. L1 (hot), neutral (also called the grounded conductor) and ground (also called the equipment grounding conductor). Neither L1 nor neutral are permitted to contact ground (including euipment frame and grounded cases) at the appliance or in the cord. This would be a fault current. In the residence neutral is bonded to ground at one point only (the service entrance).
Please be more specific:
"The whole (potential) problem is in having a voltage potential in a supposedly "dead" circuit."
Having a voltage between what and what - and how do you propose this potential is generated (sorry about the pun).
In any case - I beleive I have provided a comprehensive set of diagrams that illustrate when and when not the neutral needs to be isolated in the transfer switch. Anecdotal evidence contributed by members of the forum suggest that there are code compliant installations where electritians have installed transfer switches that do not switch neutral and since we can assume that these were inspected we know that the authorities are satisfied that these installations pose no additional risk to our linemen out there. While some of us may have installations where neutral is required to be switched in the transfer switch - others do not. My entire point was to illustrate that automatically installing a transfer switch that switches the neutral leg is neither code compliant or safe in EVERY situation. As is eloquently demonstrated by the set of 8 diagrams, it depends on the wiring setup inside the generator (Bonded Neutral vs floating neutral).
Happy generating
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Please stop the "saying no for the sake of hearing myself speak" routine and read the thread, I've answered several times now.
Or better yet, stop reading, and do as I said, get a meter and try it for yourself.
BTW, do you know that in THEORY bumble bees cannot fly?
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I am sure Schneider Electric of Toronto Ontario consider their Application Note on Stand-By generator panels to be just some theory they have dreamed up.
Anyway I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness, I am satisfied that no linemen are going to be fried on my account and that's good enough for me. For those of you who are still unsure, well you figure it out - or better yet pay your electritian to do so for you. It might be fun to survey the forum members and find out who has what setup (switched vs. unswitched neutrals) and see what the common ground (sic.) is for each type. Good discussion, I am glad there are folk out there who are passionate about life and dont have to resort to shameless name calling and the like, they are a dime a dozen on other forums.
Cheers Ann
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I am by no means a professional electrician but I do most of my electrical work and then have it inspected.. When I got ready to install my transfer switch, I contacted my local electric co-op for information, they informed me they would gladly install the transfer switch for me at no charge, they said they prefer to do this because there are to many people who think they are electrical experts and end with a setup that has the potential to cause serious injury or death to one of their lineman...So maybe your best bet is to contact your local electrical company and ask them for advice
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Generator set up ideas wanted
Loghouse
Good suggestion!
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Generator set up ideas wanted
Ann, debating is NOT the same as insulting by any stretch of the definitions.
I would not insult ANY other person without very great provocation, and it would certainly be followed by regret on my part. I do not believe you are a stupid person, and would not stoop to baseless accusations merely for the sake of blowing off steam, I DO get steamed at times, but thankfully was blessed with a goodly share of patience to temper it.
We do agree then on one point at least, there is no place in a forum such as this for personal attacks.
If nothing else, I hope I can remain as my forefathers before me, a gentleman.
Best of luck.
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