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D I Y septic system
I looked at doing the work for a replacement system at our camp. New codes made the idea seem undesirable and costly for a recreational property. I also concluded what most people here have said. Doing the work is one thing but getting it through inspection is another. We ended up with a farm pump for water and a composting toilet for septic and they've worked out just fine. I think I'd use a contractor to put in a real septic system.
Neighbours around our camp say the old septic system probably was an old car, and that most people around there used cars at one time or another. Despite the comments here about the precision needed for a system to work, cars or oil drums with a single leg for leeching worked well around here in the past--or at least they seemed to. Environmentalists say we been contaminating our ground water and they' may be right so improved systems are likely a good thing.
The trouble with codes is that they seem to be designed for the worst possible scenarios of every potential future property use. Sure does run up the real costs to present property owners to cover some hypothetical future owner. My notion is that I should pay for what I do and let some hypothetical future owner pay their own costs, but then I never have gotten along with planners very well.
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D I Y septic system
Sorry if my comments were interpreted as slamming codes, inspections or skilled installations. Not my intent at all. My point was that in the case of our camp if we put in a new septic system it would be a standard residential capacity system and would cost a lot. Such a system would be no better for the environment than an oil drum for our uses. We would pay for some abstract idea of potential future uses and circumstances that are extremely unlikely to ever occur. At best you could say that we would have to pay to subsidize a hypothetical public good but pay for it privately.
I'm also not complaining about inspections. There are more than enough unknowing or simply irresponsible property owners to go around. Nor am I under-rating the importance of well-designed and skilled installations. Many of the home grown systems around here have worked well for over 20-years. I imagine the builders simply eye-balled things and concluded 'Well that should work.' By and large they did work and are still working even if the angles and leveling may not be quite right. However, these systems may not support city habits very well. Most people with home-grown systems continued to use in-door plumbing like the biffeys and gray water pits they were used to.
I imagine the 'car systems' used around here were actually old car bodies used as open bottomed secondary tanks. I have heard of aerobic systems that may be systems of last resort where conventional systems just don't work or can't be approved.
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D I Y septic system
I guess having a bee in a bonnet would be mild by comparison. My dad told a story about being charge of quarters during WWII. He decided to reduce the number of work details by asking the troops to throw a shovel of coal in the boiler when they went passed. Seems like the idea worked too well--too many shovel-fulls. The hot water went to steam and backed up into the cold water system. Somebody flushed and got steam. I don't recall if the guy was standing or not. If it were a sit-down, I'd probably prefer a bee.
I know you're joshing, but what has happened with the new codes here is that many waterfront properties can never have septic systems. The property has to have enough space for a leech field on top of riverbanks and back a minimum distance. People who are lucky enough to have the space can pump the stuff (bees and all) to a system on top. People without space are stuck with out-houses if they didn't already have a septic system (which probably shouldn't be there in the first place).
The unlucky ones took a big hit on their property values since the buildings can't be converted for full-time residential use. It probably did mess up a few retirement plans to waltz from city jobs to a cheap piece of paradise and watch sunsets forever. But maybe I don't have a lot of sympathy. I toured a house in the middle of a city that was entirely off-grid and met all codes. It had it's own electricity, water, septic and trash systems. All sorts of things can be done but paradise can get expensive. It's easier to crap in the river and let down-stream folks worry about it. Chicago did it for decades.
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D I Y septic system
A neighbour within earshot had a well drilled to replace a dug well that was going dry (lot of that around here the past few years).
Lots of noise and smoke for days. A few days later the noise stopped. Story is that the driller got impatient and used some dynamite and then went back to drilling with a very expensive rotary bit. Rock shifted and trapped $10 or $20 thousand worth of equipment in the hole. The driller tried for several days to get the bit free and then nothing for weeks. Story was that the owner was worried he might have to pay for lost equipment. Some types of contracts with drillers are called 'easy-dig' contracts. The cost per foot is less than for regular contracts but costs go up if the hole has problems, and owners may be liable for equipment damage or loss.
It's worth knowing about down-side risk stories and really reading contracts before taking low cost drilling contract. Our neighbour could have paid for a well that was dry plus pay for lost equipment. The driller eventually did recover his stuff and the well is working so I guess everything worked out.
Willie's neighbour could end up having a real liability even if the well starts producing water. Things that don't come up to codes always can become problems. You can't do much work on them unless their brought up to code and future regulators may not be 'who you know'. Grandfathered non-complainant approvals may not transfer to future owners. At best you can't do much work on them without brining everything up to code. Besides, who'd want to buy such a property. It's real hard to believe that a poorly maintained septic system wouldn't start affecting even a deep well that's only 25' away. Actually I wouldn't buy any rural property without having an environmental inspection done. I can think of a dozen or so nightmares or potential nightmares from around here and several of the potentials were ours.
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Good grief. With a 20' casing and low recovery rate the well likely would contain mostly surface water, and those leaching fields are 25' away. Doesn't sound like the drillers found an aquifer in their 550' of drilling. I wonder if they even have their pint recovery now with the added casings? Expensive isn't the only thing that glass of water would be with only 20' of casing there.
The boomer of a system that put our local hotel out of business did use concrete tanks, but I haven't seen any but the plastic for residential use lately. Like Jeff's good reason, our Township had to have a concrete tank dug and reparged after about five years. The system sits near a riverbank and not many feet above high water. It probably shouldn't be there in the first place so they have to take extra care with it.
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Yikes Willie! This saga is starting to make my neighbour's problems sound like a picnic. The next chapter could be that the health inspector gets involved and decides the septic systems aren't up to code and the leaching field can't be repaired without bringing the whole system up to code. And then, a following chapter might be that a survey determines that a conventional system can't pass codes on the property. That's how a hotel near here got the $60K system that eventually bankrupted the business. It's story also started with equipment breaking leaching field tiles. Last chapter in a terminal story might be that the owner took an easy dig contract and can only argue negligence in court. Oh well, there's always composting toilets. Hope the real story comes out a little better.
There are a few things in this saga and my possible subsequent chapters that rural property owners should think about.
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Sure sounds like this is passing the work around local insurance adjusters--assuming that the contractors are insured. Wonder if the camp owners know that they'll likely have enough water from all this to brush their teeth and little else, if that's what they really want to do (assuming the deeper casings actually work).
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This saga is starting to recall Forest Gump--'Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you'll find.'
Our township has a mild version right now. The well tested positive for bacteria and the explanation was that town hall isn't using enough water. Running a tap for a half-hour each morning didn't solve the problem. Crew dug up the well and discovered a very strange one. It looked like somebody used two 30" dug well tiles on top of a drilled well casing that was buried 5.5' below grade. The cover was about a foot below grade.
The well sits just outside the left field foul-line of our ball field, and that part of the field accumulates a lot of water on the surface during heavy rains. It seems like water runs around the cover and the tiles hold it on top of the drilled well casing. There was almost 2' of wet muck on top of the well head. It might not have been too bad an idea except that it's not really a drilled well. It's only one section of casing that goes down about 20' from the well head. Odd, but they couldn't pump the well dry. Speculation is that water in the tiles percolating down along the drilled casing contaminates the area.
What's the connection here? Well, the tile cover was cracked and only the reinforcing mesh was holding it together. I don't imagine it got cracked from fielders diving for line-drives and I imagine a 3/4-ton driver nearly got a surprise. After we figured it out it took the Township about 3 days to motivate their contractor to get those tiles out of there and weld an extension for a pitless adapter. So now we've got a hazard sitting near the field with a picnic table over it. Figure that one out later I guess.
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Well Dang! And the Township's well fix didn't turn out either. I guess that unlimited flow from a 6" casing and a 20' hole is running pretty close to stream water. They're now talking about running a line from a deeper well used by the maintenance shop and maybe I want to dig the trench--but I think I'll pass.
At least I understand the insurance company logic in your case. Around here some policies treat bear damage as 'acts of God' but at least we're covered. Last month a guy was out hunting bear, had one break in to his house and do a bunch of damage. His policy covered bear damage to the outside but not the inside--that I don't understand.
Your hypothetical case of a dead tree that damages your neighbour's property could lead to interesting discussions with your insurance company. We had a bunch of waste oil from a previous owner of our camp tested and pumped. After the fact our broker noted that there wouldn't have been any insurance coverage if a spill had occurred. Her logic was that insurance is to cover accidents and something that can reasonable foreseen isn't an accident. Not her problem but I really hate dealing with industry mentalities. I suppose the logic does keep us more responsible though.
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04-24-2003, 05:46 
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