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9 11
Denis
I know you are being sarcastic, but I have heard also reported in non-sarcastic ways.
You and I have. What we must constantly remind ourselves of is YOU AND I ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH OPINIONS OR A VOTE. Everyone has to satisfied and outcomes have to be anyalized to see how it will affect us now and down the road. What seems dumb to us now will make perfect sense 20 years from now. Government outlawed Strip mining and pissed many people off, they outlawed catching Dolphin and govern which waters were to be fished and not fished. They goevern steel production and how the furnaces would burn. That piss many steel workers off and sent tons of business to Japan where they don't give two shits to the wind about clean air. No matter what government does, it will piss some off. Americans have made the mistake of looking at Government as a Football game, they root for the parties like they would for a team. Screw logic and common sense and concern for enviroment or issues, their only interest is not whether he got a blow job in the Oval Office during taxpayers time but he was a Democrat being accused by Republicans.
Don't blame the President for accomplishments that can not be achieved by a President, that gives clean tickets to the jerks who are really behind the problems, the Ted Kennedys. the Diane Fiensteins, the Barbra Boxers, the Byrds, the Murthas, the Deans, the Clintons etc etc. These are the people that no one can remember how they voted and they keep getting re-elected term after term. yet the President gets the blame when the Estate Tax doesn't get passed or the Budget grows large from tremdous amounts of Pork Bills. We all need to look at voting records of our Senators and Congressmen and keep as sharp an eye on them as we feel we have on the President. Let the blame go where it is most deserved, to the Fillibuster experts, to the ones who make a cirus out of the Supreme Court Justice Nominations, I mean how stupid are we that we allow Ted Kennedy (WANTED FOR MURDER AND DRUNK DRIVING) to sit and judge the ethics of a Supreme Court Judge Nominee? Why do we only focus on the President? because we are too ignorant about what is going on and he is the name we can remember best?  , I mean you can ask most people who their Senators and Congressmen are and they look at you with a real dumb look. Go ahead ask the next ten people you see. Now ask them who the President is? Programmed aren't they? Let's blame the only name we know.......
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9 11
ANN no disrespect intended
"So just shut up and say nothing? Statements like these smack of an authoritarian high-handed and autocratic approach, the complete opposite of what we are supposed to stand for."
Really??? No! I did not say that, you did. Do you look at me as an Authoritarian? well thank you for the comliment. High-handed? where does that come from? autcratic approach? Do you tell your kids to shut and eat dinner? When you are speaking and a child interups you, what do you say to them? Do you stop everything and listen to them or do you send them to their room? There is a time to speak and time not to. You can go to Debates, talk to your representatives, get on campaign committees to support or defeat a person who is running for issues not in your interest. Once the elections are over, the PEOPLE have spoken and nothing will change it. Your duty, as I think it is written in the same book you claim to get your directions from, is to support your country and her Missions. I do not see any where in the Consitution of the Untited States where Free Speech is encouraged when it is against the good standing of ones country. No way. Free Speech will not allow you to jeopardize the Safety or Security of her people such as Yelling Fire in a crowded theater or telling Russians or Iraqis information about our aresenals etc. There are limitations to Free Speech when it endangers lives of others. You have Freedom until it infringes on the Freedoms of others. You say what we are suppose to stand for, let me ask you, What do we stand for? chaos? unethical? lack of morals? do you cross your heart when the flag goes by? why not? Do you stand when the National Anthym is played? why not? what do they stand for? nothing? dissent? bashing? uncoperative? disresepct? unpatriototic? WHere are these views written that they are guaranteed and they are how GOOD AMERICANS are suppose to be? Seems like dissent is UnAmerican in my views and I really don't know what you mean by your comparisions with out reference or example. You speak of guarantees and Rights and I ask, where do they come from, who gives you those guarantees and rights? Who enforces them should they be threaten? Who ensures they will be here tomorrow? and now HOW?
"Unfortunately they don't just appear in web discussion groups they are also used by our leaders. We do ourselves a great disservice when we advocate the silencing of those that dissent."
DISSENT? is that what you think it is? the New York Times dissented when it gave away vital information that would lead to the arrest of our countries enemies? You believe that every one has a GUARANTEE to FREE SPEECH no matter what because they have a RIGHT TO DISSENT? We do our selves a GREATER Diservice when we allow our own people to endanger the lives of fellow Americans because they feel they have a RIGHT to dissent.
"It's also truely "unamerican" although there is plenty of shameful historical evidence that it happens."
UNAMERICAN? now where did you find that at? No insult intended, but have you really ever read the U.S. Constitution, every word? The Declaration of Independence? the Bill of Rights? the Federalists Papers? Where do you find that you have a Right to dissent or it is UNAmerican to support your country while at war? Do you Honestly feel you have a Right to endanger the Safety and Security of our Troops because you feel you have a Right? Which Amendment covers this Right? In the Military Dissent is deemed as Mutiny when there is more than TWO. Dissent can also be deemed as a coup. Dissent is dangerous and I see no where in the Constitution of the United States where anyone is encouraged to dissent or that it is a Right.
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9 11
Wingwiper - you win based on the length of your posts alone 
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9 11
Thanks
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9 11
wingwiper, this kind of caught my eye.
"When you are speaking and a child interups you, what do you say to them? Do you stop everything and listen to them or do you send them to their room? There is a time to speak and time not to."
There was a time that when one of your parents said hush, you'd better do exactly that. If you didn't, you didn't get sent to your room or no TV. If you know what I mean. Back then you knew what the word respect was.
I guess my point is, as parents, are we doing the right thing?
Sorry to hijack the thread but thought it was worth mentioning.
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9 11
Billy
You are as welcome as anybody else and your opinion has as much weight as anyones. Feel free to speak your mind.
I usually caught the backside of a hand if I didn't do as I was told and I am sure my mom would have been locked up for life for all of her child abuse. I mean she would buy them paddles with a rubber ball on the end of a 20 second rubber band and we all knew what she was going to use it for when that 20 second rubber band exceeded its life expectancy. We would be sent upstairs and down they would come and across that bed we would lie and wait and wait for them God awful footsteps that would come up them stairs and the silence and then the air would have this swoosh sound that lasted only a milisecond followed by these God Awful screams and stinging cheeks. Yup! respect! yes sir re Bob, we had it driven in to us from the rear and it stayed with us for a long while.
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9 11
"You believe that every one has a GUARANTEE to FREE SPEECH no matter what because they have a RIGHT TO DISSENT?"
"Dissent is dangerous and I see no where in the Constitution of the United States where anyone is encouraged to dissent or that it is a Right."
"No insult intended, but have you really ever read the U.S. Constitution, every word? [paraphrased] Where do you find that you have a Right to dissent ..."
US Law 101
That would be the very first amendment. I'm getting the distinct feeling that participating in this discussion is not going to be very enlightening. FYI a copy of the amendment is attached to this post as is a definition of the word dissent. Should anyone wish to dissent please know it's your first amendment right, and as such constitutionally protected, those soldiers out there are supposedly fighting to keep that right for us, during war and peace time. Oh and by the way the freedom of the press is also protected by this amendment (seeing as that was questioned as well).
From First Law:
U.S. Constitution: First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Dissent (from Wikipedia)
Dissent is a sentiment or philosophy of non-agreement or opposition to an idea (eg. a government's policies) or an entity (eg. an individual or political party which supports such policies). Antonyms include agreement, consensus and consent.
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9 11
Ann
Enlightenment is only when people respond that agree with you? When they don't agree it is what?
U.S. Law 101? did you study law or is that only implying towards me? Even Lawyers can be quacks and studying law doesn't mean one has a grip on the true meaning.
I am very aware of what the first Amednment says and I see no reference to dissent where you endanger your fellow American.
People can respectfully dissent from a debate but that isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the people of the Untited States, by Majority, going to War and I do NOT feel that those who choose to Bash the President, accuse the U.S. of false Artocities, try to find fault constantly, throw barriers in front of our Policies, and reveal vital information that endangers our troops and our people is DISSENT or is protected under the 1st Amendment or any other Amendment. I think I made my reference pretty clear. There are limitations to freedom of Speech and as I said when you endanger the Safety or Security of your Fellow Americans, it is No longer Freedom of Speech and that Opposition or dissent is kissing the meaning of treason.
You refer to the First Amendment as if it is OPEN GUARANTEE, it is not. There are Limits to your Freedom of Speech and in most places you need a PERMIT to Peacefully Assemble, You need to be careful your Freedom of Speech does not commit treason, Slander, Assault, panic, chaos, deflamation and so forth. You do NOT have an OPEN Right to bash the Mission of the Untied States when that Mission has been voted on and enacted by the clear Majority which the War in Iraq was.
Ann without disrespect, I serve th U.S. Constitution and I believe in it with all my Heart, but I do not believe that people who constantly speak of discontent with the war in Iraq, bash the president, accuses our forces of crimes and artocities, reveals vital information that endangers lives, gives condolences to the enemy etc. is protected by the First Amendment in any way. That is hiding behind an Amendment for the full reason of trying to justify ones hate towards their own country and that to me is closer to treason than it is to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. That is the New Liberalism of Today. (I am NOT accusing You of anything, read carefully) The Demostrations during the Vietnam War were not excersises of Free Speech but of violent oppostion to the U.S. Policies in place. Most involved had Zero knowledge of the reasons for the War or Policies but showed up for mere opposition and participated in destruction and causing choas to the direction of our Mission. Did they cost American Lives? they most certainly did, Jane Fonda who? when Our troops are on a battlefield and then become uncertain, and unfocused of what they are suppose to be doing and they know that no matter what they do they will be critized, YES! many were killed. That Ann is not the dissent that you try to refer to the First Amendment for.
You said "The bickering starts when the plan falls apart and there is no clear contingency (as evidenced by all the bickering) Looks to me like we are stuck for now - can't win, can't pull out. We do ourselves a great disservice when we advocate the silencing of those that dissent. It's also truely "unamerican" although there is plenty of shameful historical evidence that it happens. "
Acutally where do you feel we have FAILED? Why do say we are STUCK? Can't Win? that is a very strong claim. We do NOT do a Bad Service by silencing dissenters? There is no doubt in my mind it is the dissenters who have prolonged the mission, caused failures where we may have had successes and who have caused distractions with their ignorance and their false accusations.
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9 11
Ann,
You're just on target. Descent is the whole reason to have a discussion; what a boring existence it would be if there was no one to argue with. Most of our arguing is done for entertainment's sake anyway : )
WW,
I listed 5 failures (not accusations, but real lack-of-leadership-type failures) in the last post on page 2. Your general comments did not address these points. You mentioned something about needing to have political consensus to be able to achieve things. Neither of the things listed by me were/are subject to political process as they could have been accomplished with a simple command.
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9 11
Denis
You listed five personnal opinions and they are by no means established facts. You also said "Don't explain these failures away" so I did not. Now you are wondering why I did not.
1. Welcome to the New Justice. I watched a High School teacher lose his job, his home and his family, because he was accused by young female student of molesting her. After about two years she confessed she had made it all up because he had failed her on a test or whatever. Today, you can accuse a Mother of child abuse if she smacks her child in a store for touching and the Welfare Dept may come and take the child away as was done in Conn. Liberals love to accuse and then have the accused prove their innocence. We have allowed the media instead of War Correspondants to be apart of the Operations. Bad decision. When one gets injured the story shifts from the War and the fighting soldier to the Newsperson and why weren't they protected etc etc. We have flipped our lids, Denis. We accuse without merit and the accusations being made today would have been scourned during WWII. I fully agree with trials for those who murder women and children and rape them. If they are guilty, FIRING SQUAD. It is a war, but wars are fought with a degree of decency, you don't pilerage the ones you are trying to help and you don't rape them and treat them the same as some garbage. NO Failure by Bush what SIMPLE COMMAND could end this?
2. We have turned over the Bulk of the interior defense to the Iraqis. We are advisors and the such and it took a bit of presuading to get the Marines to go in and do what they did a year ago. We are NOT occupiers, remember? and we can not act like Occupiers. We are there to help. We need to have permission not just from our Government but from the Iraqis as well. NO Failure by Bush, but by defination of mission. What SIMPLE COMMAND could allow to enter the Cities and flush the terrorists out without Iraqi apporval?
3. Political Assinations are unacceptable in the U.N. or any World Order. Is that really the way you want the U.S. to be? I rather see some Diplomacy mixed with the force and not just BLIND FORCE, that was Hitler's and Stalin's Way. NO Failure by anyone what SIMPLE COMMAND could eliminate him and not get the U.S. thrown under the bus?
4.Invade Pakistan? under what premise? wow! let's have a World War created by the U.S. let's not just talk about the merits of Iraq, let's invade everyone. That should make every Arab love us more. Denis, slow down. We are not going to spend billions over ONE man and mostly if that man can be defeated in other ways. We chose the other ways and they have been working, well now that the New York Times made a few dollars over a story that sold out U.S. Info. Now! once the Taliban has beem fully reformed and they enter in from Pakistan, we can have another Turkey Shoot. Until we have something to react to, I don't think we can be agressive to another country. NO Failure by anyone, just God Awful terrain and no bases to work from, no operatives, no highways, only can work from established areas a few clicks at a time. Aerial Recon only shows mountains and lots of shadows where Armies could hide and not be seen. what SIMPLE COMMAND would be given to create this, I am afraid this is thin ice for us?
5. Can't close the borders until it is agreed on by the Majority. There have been over 40 Presidents prior to George. I think the borders will be closed for that seems to be the fervor of the people. It is a BIG ISSUE now but never was before. Thanks to Web forums, internet and means of getting people alerted. what SIMPLE COMMAND that would not piss God knows who off?
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09-13-2006, 14:55 
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