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A thought-provoking eye-opener
Murf,
While you were in Grenada, I was in Germany. In fact, I couldn't get back home to the U.S., due to the fact that all of Uncle Sam's military aircraft were being used to ship home dead Marines, from Beirut.
I spent 16 years in a military uniform, (Army and Army Reserves, under four different U.S. presidents) believing that I was training to defend my nation from a future attack. Boy.....was I ever fooled. I was very naive in my younger days.
The U.S. hasn't been attacked since the War of 1812........and that was the last legitimate war the U.S. was involved with. Every war since has been fought for reasons wholly unrelated to our freedoms, security, or well-being.
There are those who take issue with my stance. Most people generally make an exception for WWII, in which the Japanese bombed U.S. forces at Pearl Harbor. History, however, describes a situation in which the U.S. never should have been in Hawaii in the first place, as it wasn't ours to take.......but we took it anyway, against the objections from their Queen.
President Grover Cleveland spoke out against the military overthrow of the Hawaiian government, which took place in 1893. Cleveland thought it very wrong of us to take a nation away from its people, simply because our sugar growers wanted the land for themselves.
Grover Cleveland lost his next election. With Cleveland out the way, Congress decided to keep Hawaii.
Of course, at the same time, we were working to take the Philippines, as well. As we moved further and further into the Pacific, and further and further away from home, our military adventures began to worry the people of other nations........in particular, the Japanese.
After studying the history of our military adventures, I've come to the firm conclusion that our government is in the business of making enemies for us to fight. Vietnam is a good example of this. Korea, as well.
We shouldn't be surprised when we find ourselves being invaded by foreigners. It's nothing more than a taste of our own medicine.
Much more to come, if you're interested.
Have a great day, my friend. It's nice to know you.
Joel
U.S. Army & Army Reserves 1978-1994
(No, I didn't retire. I don't believe my fellow citizens owe me a dime for my time, or service.)
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
Military should be last choice, if economic way still available. Grenada is a special tiny example generally. Without American Capital support, I don't think those things will ever happen. As I known, basicly, if HomeDepot can get items <17% than sales price, walmart even lower, war is too expensive. 
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
Kangaroo31,
No nation, in the entire history of the world, has ever gotten rich by fighting wars. War is an expense that can never be recovered. Napoleon, if he was still alive, might be able to shed some light on this issue.
In an effort to finance his war against the world, Napoleon was forced to sell the Louisiana Territory to the U.S. He needed the money. People who need money often sell things they wouldn't otherwise sell.
France lost its ass fighting wars. Rome did too. Germany didn't get rich while building up the Third Reich. The U.S.S.R. no longer exists. The future of the U.S. is not in question. The only question remaining, pertaining to our own demise, is when it might happen.
Our nation was put on a proper foundation by our Founders. One cannot begin to build a nation without a foundation to put it on. And when once that foundation begins to crumble, the entire nation falls with it.
It's high time we begin shoring up the foundation our nation was built upon. If we don't, nothing can save her.
Joel
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
U.S.S.R is exception here, it lost its ass because of the "System". Agree on we stand on a very good fundation that created in 1776.
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
Joel, you make some very interesting points, I hadn't thought of Hawaii the way you presented it.
IMHO, however, the issue of how America came to be in Hawaii likely wouldn't have changed the Japanese attack one iota. Japan was bent on controlling a large area, Hawaii was within that area, and even if it was still a sovereign nation, and the US fleet was there laying at anchor in a 'foreign port' they still would have been hit.
Your point about Hawaii, that "...it wasn't ours to take..." is rather interesting. Couldn't basically the same thing be said about most places. The Indians sure didn't want the first white people that landed in North America. In fact I think "subjugation" would be the right word here too.
However, political evolution, from within or without it's borders is inevitable. How it's done, and the result is the only part open to change, be it by military action, political change, revolution, or just the almighty buck, change will happen.
Best of luck.
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
Murf,
I wish I could tell you just how much respect our Founders had for the Swiss model of non-intervention in foreign affairs, as well as a strong Swiss national defense.
Our Founders thought so highly of the Swiss model, that they adopted it for the U.S.....with few exceptions. Even the militia established by our Founders was based largely on the Swiss example.
The Swiss model was highly cherished by men like Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin. In fact, the very first treaty signed by the Continental Congress was the Law of Nations, written the famous a Swiss political scientist....Vattel.
How many wars have the Swiss taken part in? How many lives have they lost due to war casualties? How many military widows are there in Switzerland? How many of their soldiers suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome? How much money do the Swiss spend on their military veterans, veterans hospitals, agent orange exposure, military funerals, and military retirement benefits? The answer to all of these questions is the same.......ALMOST ZERO.
Now.....how many enemies do the Swiss have? Why haven't the Swiss been attacked by Al-Queda? Why no terrorist attacks against Swiss foreign interests?
Well.....the Swiss have no enemies, because they aren't in the business of making any. They mind their own damned business. In doing so, they've managed not to piss anybody off.
The Swiss haven't been attacked by terrorists, because the terrorists have no complaint against the Swiss. The Swiss don't have soldiers in the middle east. The Swiss don't offer bribes to middle east leaders, under the guise of foreign aid. And the Swiss don't impose sanctions against those who don't allow women to vote.......the list goes on and on and on.
What goes on outside of Swiss borders is none of their business.......and they keep their mouths shut about ALL OF IT.
We Americans......we have a very difficult time putting the shoe on the other foot. We can't imagine what we would do if the Chinese decided to build an air base in the U.S., for the purpose of "protecting Chinese national interests abroad". LIKE HELL, I say. I'd be killing Chinese every day, and I'd feed them to my dog. But, when it comes to placing U.S. troops on foreign soil, most Americans can't help but applaud those heroes in D.C. who "Care" so much about the people of the world. PHOOEY! They have their own governments. They have their own problems. Some problems aren't ours to take care of, and frankly, the whole world wishes like hell we'd learn this important lesson.
Now......as to Japan.
Japan once had no military at all. The most powerful weapon in Japan was the sword, carried by the Shogun. That is, not until Commodore Perry showed up, in 1853. With ship cannons blazing, Perry demanded that the Japanese sign a trade agreement with the U.S. Fearing for their lives, the Japanese finally agreed to allow foreign trade with the U.S.
Immediately thereafter, the people of Japan began a political revolution. They now feared the modern weapons displayed by the Americans. They knew that the simple sword would no longer protect them against an invasion.
The people of Japan ended the position of the Shogun, opting instead for a military government which would have the power to protect them from any further American or British aggression.
This is where everything went wrong. A strong army needs weapons, tanks, trucks, ammunition and food. These weapons require rubber, copper, iron, and other raw materials. And the huge amount of food needed to feed a large military force must be grown somewhere.
The Japanese had very little land. They had few raw materials. They had none of the things they needed to build and sustain a military force large enough to protect the home islands from the powerful American Navy. But they were running out of time.
The U.S. was on the march across the Pacific. First it was Hawaii, then the Philippines. We were getting closer to Japan with each passing day. The Japanese didn't have time to wait. Since we had already taken Hawaii by force, and in the process of subduing the people of the Philippines, the people of Japan were quite certain they already knew where we were headed next.
Little thought is given as to why the Japanese attacked us on the morning of December 7, 1941. Most Americans just chalk things up as being the actions of yet another evil empire. Hardly! In all honesty, we had it coming.
Now...if we examine the Swiss once again, we'll see that they have nothing resembling our U.S.S. Arizona Memorial. They have no Pearl Harbor. They have no soldiers buried on some island in the Pacific, and they have no money going to some evil dictator in the middle east, who might someday target them with the weapons purchased with that Swiss money.
Ah yes......we've forgotten nearly everything our Founders tried to tell us. We just can't help but butt into every little problem that arises in the world. We can't help but make enemies for ourselves......it's our hobby. We enjoy it.
Enough for now......
Joel
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
Just some food for thought here.......
Enjoy.
Joel
Against Standing Armies
"There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army." --Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789. ME 7:323
"I do not like [in the new Federal Constitution] the omission of a Bill of Rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for... protection against standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:387
"Nor is it conceived needful or safe that a standing army should be kept up in time of peace for [defense against invasion]." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334
"Standing armies [are] inconsistent with [a people's] freedom and subversive of their quiet." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Lord North's Proposition, 1775. Papers 1:231
"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." --Thomas Jefferson to Chandler Price, 1807. ME 11:160
"A distinction between the civil and military [is one] which it would be for the good of the whole to obliterate as soon as possible." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:90
"It is nonsense to talk of regulars. They are not to be had among a people so easy and happy at home as ours. We might as well rely on calling down an army of angels from heaven." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1814. ME 14:207
"There shall be no standing army but in time of actual war." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776. Papers 1:363
"The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:184
"Bonaparte... transferred the destinies of the republic from the civil to the military arm. Some will use this as a lesson against the practicability of republican government. I read it as a lesson against the danger of standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams, 1800. ME 10:154
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
If I have my history correct, Rome, not the empire lasted for right at 1,000 years. One might think that we have 800 years left. Most of the countries that you mentioned in your post relied on other countries for back up and support as a big part of their Strategies. Like Germany and Italy. Wonder if Germany would make that choice now. France has always been on the loosing end until their marginal support of our revolution. Someone always had to bail them out. England and America have waged war from the start they are still in business. We pick winners for our support countries, Canada, England, and the down under crowd. Hopefully this will help with our success.
The U.S. has alway been bullies in the gobial arena I dont see that changing any time soon. I would love to see us return to the foundation laid down by our founding fathers, I dont see that changing anytime soon. You are correct we have lost our way.
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
The news report was of a lady killed in a big city while her neighbors look out their window just knowing someone else would help her. No one did. She was killed as good honest people did nothing. This is not made up but a very much studied true story from a major US City. If that lady was my mother, wife or children I would have call for damnation on those who were too good to gotten envolved and you know what, so would you ...
...I only read part of the how great the Swiss are and had to stop as I almost got sick…
The Swiss are FAR from perfect and the Japanese from always being peaceful people. The Swiss have had many cases of bribery, money laundering and such. Even in the recent years. You can kill with more than the gun or the sword. Yes a sword can be a very dangerous weapon and yes if that is the most modern weapon you have to use, then that is the one you use. All countries have imported weapons if they can improve their own military powers, regardless of what they are called.
God Bless our leadership who does not care what a person or a country thinks and is willing to bomb, shoot or kill who ever they honestly believe is a threat to this country. I will tell you I do not respect any person or county who has no backbone. Even this dummy knows you do not spend your military supplies on none threats. So why would Terrorist waste them on such a country. The fact they have not attack the Swiss (at least that you know of) does not prove how they view them. There are many countries they have not attack I doubt they think of as friend.
…this country is not the evil empire some try to paint us as being. There has never and I mean never been a county who has done so much for so many in this world. We fund more relief to more parts of this world than any other country has or does. That is why God still does blesses us in his bounty as we are not hordes, but do share and do so greatly and with a loving heart.
Now, I am gone from this thread. I respect each of you here and have gain insight from each of you. I rather keep that respect by leaving this thread. Murf, nuke me as you need to on this. If my comments here are hostile please feel free to delete any and all of them. kt
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A thought-provoking eye-opener
Ken, don't jump off the boat just yet, I agree with you, Murf ain't gonna nuke you cause you said what you believed and you were civil about it.
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