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Another story the media Will Not cover
Statistically, every state that has passed right to carry laws experience a lowering of violent crime rates. That's, of course, after all the real wackos (patriotic libs) scream about how the blood will flow in the streets if the law passes. Never happens.
Alaska just changed its CCW law to not require a permit to carry concealed if you're legal to possess a firearm. We're only the 2nd state not requiring a permit. I think the other one is Vermont, correct me if I'm wrong. I have mixed feelings about that. As well intentioned as honest citizens are, they should educate themselves as to when deadly force is allowed. Not requiring a permit to carry concealed may circumvent that education for some.
I have a permit mainly to be able to carry in other states where I visit frequently. Washington, Montana and Arizona mainly.
I'm into shooting sports, always have been, but also view my sidearm as a tool, like Lawman. Since I retired from APD I've had one occasion to draw down on an idiot in, of all places, a MacDonald's parking lot at lunch time. Had I been unarmed there's no doubt that someone was going to get hurt. 99.9999999% of the time you'll never need it..but that ONE time that you do nothing else will suffice.
This idea that packing heat is more dangerous for you is pure h....s..t. Once again, statistics prove otherwise. Sure, there's always the exception. The fact that 35-40% of police officers killed are killed with their own weapons doesn't mean we should disarm the police for their own safety.
There are, and I think Mark & Lawguy would agree, a few officers out there that shouldn't be carrying guns (or for that matter even be cops), the same with a few honest citizens. But the greater good is served by being free to make that choice.
One last thing. I hear the same, tired arguments the patriotic libs make against firearms, especially handguns and "assault" rifles. They always "quote" statistics to back them up. Knowing for a fact that their statistics conflict with even the Federal Government's own statistics, would indicate they aren't mis-stating but simply lying. My question has always been, what is their REAL agenda. I think the answer is that firearm ownership represents freedom and self sufficiency. That's against the liberal mentality. They want big government to run our lives and make us subserviant. So anything that represents individuality and freedom from big government, they're against.
Now I gotta run. I'm installing a shotgun rack on the tractor. We get bears through the yard in the summer and I almost bumped into a sow and 3 cubs last year while mowing.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
I am for freedom to carry but with that freedom come great repsonsibility. The exception to this I would hope include drunk drivers along with the fruit cakes, drug abusers, etc. I also think it should be as easy for me to get a permit if required as it is for you. I am a Benefactor Life Member of the NRA and strongly support these freedoms.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
I think you saw the Matrix one too many times buddy.
You could be a Navy Seal, Bruce Lee, heavyweight champ of the world, and half Ninja all cobined and if the other guy has a gun yer' cooked most times. Plenty of big strong guys dead from 14 year old crackheads with guns.
That is why honest people want to carry handguns, there's no such thing as a fair fight. Knives, guns, bats, etc, enter the fray REAL quick. When was the last time you so two people go at to without one group of friends jumping in?
I have seen an old man beaten with "the club" after a minor traffic dispute with a much younger and physicaly able man. He could have taken the old guy with one hand but nowadays why dirty your hands, just hit em' with something. I have also seen a loud mouth challengs a guy to a fight and when the quiet guy accepted the big mouth was so stunned he let 6-7 rounds go froma small automatic he had hidden in his waistband (amazingly he missed!). I had a friend stabbed through most of the organs in his midsection over bumping a guy in line at White Castle. No warning, no fight just BAM! There are many other examples but the point is there was no need for weapons but the bad guys went for them first thing.
These instances were all while I was off duty. Would a gun have helped in all cases, no but it would have saved the old man from a beating and the loud mouth might not be drawing any weapons. With the old guy I stopped the beating, chased him but when he started running red lights I backed off, the guy with the gun ran off before I got out of my front door and the stabbing happened before I as acop and I was bartending next door( he ran off, got caught,near beat to death and jailed)
My point is if you get in very many confrontations today, before long you'll be on the wrong side of a gun, some other weapon or beaten down by superior numbers. I avoid conflict but take comfort in the fact that 90% of the time I'm going to be the best armed.
People with guns avoid trouble more than those without a gun. You can't fight while carrying a gun. People see it and panic even if your not using it, the opponent now has an excuse to use a weapon(maybe even legally), legal ramifications regarding your license and if you are wrestling around you may lose it.
Some people shouldn't have guns but then again many people shouldn't have kids, responsible jobs or drivers licenses.
If you aren't a felon, insane and can do the last three items I listed responsibly, you should be able to carry a gun with a basic course on the law and safety.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
OK, Richard..you crossed the line. The "Barney" thingee was uncalled for but I could care less. Yes, I survived..how the h..l would you think I could be writing this piece of brillance if I hadn't?? How about this. I could survive in west verginny very easily. All I'd have to do is wear bib overalls and pull half of my teeth and blend in with the crowd. Not that I'm stereotyping W.VA. But you named the tune, I'm just dancing to it, pard.
Lawguy, you're absolutely right. These days just making eye contact in traffic can provoke a deadly encounter. Just walk softly and carry a BIG stick. Having our L.E. training does make us vunerable, legally speaking. That goes for permitees who are trained in shoot/don't shoot legalities. We've got to be spot on if we resort to deadly force, or the threat of it, lest we be held to a much higher standard of conduct than, say, Richard.
Again, Lawman, you're right about responsiblity when it comes to vehicles, having kids..etc. The vast majority of our social ills come from irresponsible parenting. But we don't need a permit to reproduce. Probably because the Kennedys or Clintons and the like wouldn't have been qualified for permits.
Most bad guys when confronted by an armed citizen don't have the guts to follow through with their evilness. In most cases when merely confronting an armed citizen they cut & run. The number of armed encounters in the U.S. between scum and armed good guys is in the 2,000,000/yr range. About 4 times more than the police experience. In many of these situations, had the citizen been unarmed, the call to 911 would have been to retrieve the body and investigate the crime scene. That really helps the victim.
Mark..you are right too.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
Just think how all this sounds to somebody coming here for the first time to learn about tractors or for that matter to somebody who puts in time and expertise to answer serious tractor related questions. Every time this sort of exchange happens and persists our tractor content drops off. The particular subject or orientation doesn't make any difference. The results are just noise that puts off people who want to know about tractors and we get fewer participants, more noise and less tractors.
The one thing I learned in the military, playing soccer or in a band for that matter is that you take care of the buz of what ever you're in first. Anything else is self-indulgence. Usually there is usually some room for self-indulgence but it has to be balanced with the buz. The buz here is tractor content and we need to get back to it before we turn into late night radio end up with no tractor content.
In any group we earn our recognition and respect by how well we contribute to the buz--questions as well as answers. Most people here contribute and have earned the right to speak. Those who haven't shouldn't be thought of serious persons and shouldn't be taken as sources of insult no mater what is said.
Freedom of speech too has responsibilities and limits. Measures are available against strong transgressions and maybe Dennis will consider some of them.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
Many of us that have tractors also share in many common interests such as machine shop and fabrication, fishing, hunting, sport shooting, boating, gardening, farming, etc. If you go to the bar, you don't just talk tractors all of the time. As a suggestion, I think Dennis should consider expanding our board or create links with this one. Those that only want to talk tractor stuff can and those that want more also can. (i.e. If you're a premium member you could do it all).
It is great that we live in a free society where we can express our thoughts. We can think as we wish. Sometimes our common interests and viewpoints get stressed a little.
Haven't started my tractor is several days now, so nothing broke or bent and assume it will start next time. So nothing to report on the tractor. In Michigan you can't mount a gun or have a gun on a moving vehicle. You can, but don't get caught. A local farmer got his combine and corn header taken by the DNR for using it while shooting pheasants in the fall.
Have you guys noted the number of pheasants at the road side lately. They must be getting stones for digestion and rock salt. The snow is hard packed here with a crust on top that the birds can pick through. This is the hardest month for critters to get through.
I've intentionally changed the subject matter so we can go in a different and more pleasant direction.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
wildman:
I would appreciate a little more respect for WV. If you have issues with another member, take it up with the member and not the state he lives in. As far as pulling a gun in a parking lot in WV, yes there are certain parts of WV you would probably be better off keeping your weapon holstered as about half the parking lot or better have rifles in their trucks and would not bother them in the least to take someone out. That is only select places in WV. You point a gun at one person and there would probably be about 10 or 15 pointed back at you. Other than the WV comment your masterpiece had good content.
The only thing that concerns me over CCW is someone who is not properly trained. Number one, don't ever draw your weapon unless you plan on using it if necessary (in other words if you can't shoot someone then leave it at home). Law enforcement or retired officers carrying is one thing because most have been trained how to be restrained and not stuff a gun in someone's face because they cut you off or said something out of the way. A lot of hotheads out there may choose the wrong time to display their weapon and feel they may need to go further than necessary. I've been wanting to get a CCW permit but the wife is deadset against it.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
TomG
Please note that this thread is on the Just for fun/Off Topic section of this great site. I joined as a premium member becuase of all the good information available and all the great and knowledgable people here. But to be honest with you if this site were limited to strict guidelines of the only discussion permitted was tractor purchase and repair, I would have not probably joined as a premium member.
There are many other discussions here regarding landscaping and vehicles and so forth that are extremely helpful and when a thread like this one begins it is good to see that there are so many out there that have their opinions and are not scared to share them. ( Not to mention that I for one agree with
If someone new comes here and reads all this, it is their choice, no one is forcing them too. If they want just tractor specifics then they have that option as well.
Just my .02 I truly enjoy talking with and learning so much about not only tractors, but other folks here, their interests and views.
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Another story the media Will Not cover
Group hug everybody!!!!! ;o)........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................NOT! ;o) Just kiddin'........we WEREN'T having a moment there! ;o)
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Another story the media Will Not cover
Well, we got alittle heated but we covered many tough subjects so it may have bben inevitable.
All in all we got alot of good info. and some great give and take.
Wildman, you'reright these days you better by 110% clear cut in the right. If you screw up you'll be up to your eyes in lawyers and you can't even kill them fellas with a silver bullet, they just multiply 
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02-09-2004, 22:35 
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