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Lights POWERR AC-
"1) there is NO LPG available during a black-out, if you don't have enough on-site when the lights go out, tough."
Huh?
You could get propane here at the propane dealer of your choice. They are all over the place in suburban/rural areas. Home Depot,Lowes,Walmart,Bj's,gas stations and local hardware stores have as many propane tanks as you needed.I could have bought or exchanged a hundred if I wanted. Sure they will only last 5 hours but we're talking last resort if you ran out and the suppliers (for some reason?) were unavailable. Also my 100 gallon tank (used for cooking) is filled on a schedule so it NEVER gets down below about 70 gallons, that means I am good for about 3 days of continued running without a refill. Not to mention thatjust about every one of my neighbors has 50- 100 gallon tanks of propane for cooking and if I am the only one with power for days on ened I am sure their tanks will be offered up real quick 
"there was a travel ban imposed even if you had gas."
Was not a problem in this country. I have never seen a travel restriciton other than the fact that you can't go TO the site of the "disaster". Even on 9/11 travel wasn't restricted in the manner you are describing.
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Lights POWERR AC-
most of the stores you mentioned were closed here during the outage. In fact they all were includeing the gas stations. You had to drive N and fight hours of traffic to get fuel. Most of the stations here just outside suburbia do not sell the mini tanks you are reffering to. I did however see a couple of LPG places that appeared to be open but I doubt they were filling w/out power and for safety reasons. Buisinesses that were in the outage area were asked not to open by our wise and all knowing governess.
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Lights POWERR AC-
F350, the 'propane is not available' comment is because, with the exception of pre-filled cyclinders which were sold out in the first 5 minutes, the only LPG available was at refill stations that are powered by ELECTRIC pumps, no electricity no pumps, this was the case in Toronto, the gas stations which had gas and propane were unable to pump it. If you have a yard tank that is another case, few people relatively speaking, have bulk LP tanks, most are on natural gas where it is available because of the cost savings.
The travel ban was imposed for two reasons, neither of which had diddly to do with security, first, there was a shortage of gas, because of the above situation, but most importantly because without electricity there are no traffic lights, can you say 'traffic jams'? They were also concerned that if they din't keep people off the streets the hospitals could become overwhelmed quickly.
My neighbour, who NORMALLY has a 1 hour commute from a downtown office left for home at 4:30 on Thursday and got home at 8:30pm.
Best of luck.
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Lights POWERR AC-
I can only go by my location as we all do, our service stations were not pumping due to lack of power they would gladly sell you a 5 gallon tank of propane or a pack of gum for that matter. Here even many supermarkets have the tanks for sale. There was no run on them because not many people have propane generators, everybody goes for the cheap $500 HomeDepot generator and the farmers have tractor driven PTO gens. Because MOST people have propane stoves their was no run on small propane tanks for cooking on the BBQ. In your area as there would be in any area with mostly natural gas or electric stoves,I would guess everyone neede tanks for the BBQ.
As far as Canada, you must be used to it, a travel restriciton here would spark paranoia and they'd be forming militias by day 2
Bottom line is that we need to choose the power source that makes most sense in our areas, for some it's gas, others choose diesel and still others choose propane.
Maybe the ultimate solution is to have a second propane tank left just for the propane generator then I will have 100 hours of steady running before I need to go and use my 50 hour supply that is in the "cooking" tank. Now I am good for almost 7 solid days before I need to scrounge 5 gallon tanks. I could always alternate tanks every year just to keep it fresh. Now I think that we all can agree, only the most "doom and gloom" would approve of that level of preparation.
Hey, I just saw an add for a wind powered generator, you guys have wind in your locale?? Canadian government didn't halt the wind did they?
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Lights POWERR AC-
If it is anything like our gummint, they probably create a lot of wind.
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Lights POWERR AC-
F350, your right on the money about the locale being the key to it all.
We don't have stores with much in the way of pre-filled propane tanks in stock around here, our Fire Code, and some Occupational Health & Safety Reg.'s limit the amount of LPG (or other flammables) that can be stored in one place without an inordinate amount of safety equipment (blast shields, etc.) in case of fire, etc.
As for the travel bans thing, as Doc has mentioned a few times, the distance between USA & Canada is only a few hundred feet in places, but a world away in attitude, crime statistics, etc. Case in point, the Greater Toronto Area has a population of over 5 million people, there was not even one case of looting reported and grocery stores and bakeries gave away free food rather than have it spoil.
Wind restrictions, hardly, we're gearing up for a soon to be announced provincial election, there's all the 'wind' you could possibly ever want.... MAO.
Seriously though, there is a big interest in wind genrators around my place, we are on top of a glacial ridge 'above' Toronto so we are seldom without at least a breeze. They are also starting to build micro hydro-electric plants on many of the historic mills and dams in southern Ontario because of significant tax reductions on revenue made from electrical generation.
Besdies it's easy to alieve fears of 'big brother' by saying "everybody stay home & have a 3 day weekend".
Best of luck.
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Lights POWERR AC-
Now Murf I gotta say with 50 states plus me I think we got you guys with just a few provential terratories beat all to heaven on the gas bag count !  . Speaking of wind driven electricity Mackinaw city Has incorporated two wind mills on the Bluff over the sraights of Mackinaw. The next time your out running that overpowered dingy murf you just come around the bend for cocktail hour ! Nice Marina in Mackinaw city or on the Island. I'll buy.
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Lights POWERR AC-
What's that about your neighbor almost getting killed by "someone running a blacked out light at 80mph?"
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Lights POWERR AC-
My neighbors recently started driveing a truck. They had asked me about them for the last several years and I guess they finally decided to take the plunge. Right after the lights went out many of the intersections were either dark or gave false signals from some temporary power source for several minutes. Many people through out the Detroit area were killed in auto accidents over the outage which is a topic the news seems to have avoided searching for the sole looter to boost the media hype. Any how they were brodsided in the front quarter panel. Dad has a broken arm in two places, daughter has a broken collar bone, mom has several broken ribs. We were trying to talk over the genset which is not exactly quiet. Sounds like they were all out for a few minutes and dont remember anything. They said the witnesses estimated the other drivers speed at 80 mph and I think he was DOA. I think they are sold on trucks as he said several times if they had been in the car they would all be dead. When the power is out every intersectionis to be treated as a four stop. Most people understand this but I personally saw several drivers blow right through intersections, The trouble was not electricity it was the me first mentality. Again.
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Lights POWERR AC-
I just got a call from our farm, they in turn had just got a call from the local office of the provincial electrical service, commencing about 5pm Toronto time they will commence a series of rolling, RANDOM blackouts. They will likely affect ALL of southern Ontario. Each INTENTIONAL blackout will last approx. 2 hours.
The point of their call was to ask us to be prepared to switch to our own backup generators, and to switch back into the grid slowly when the grid does come back up in our area so as to not overload the grid on start-up.
Ahhh, modern technology, ain't it grand.
Somewhere Mr. Edison is rolling in his grave....laughing.
Best of luck.
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08-18-2003, 10:08 
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