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D I Y septic system
Tom you bring up an excellent point about camps. Yep I agree 100% about the old barrels and single leach lines working fine at a camp. Now put a family of four or more on that year round. Here camps on the lakes either use a storage tank and pump it weekly or when it's required. Others have property way up above the lake and pump it there with as many as 2 or more pump stations to a septic system.
I take exception to your lack of concern about slope being very accurate. Slope angle is critical to insure proper drainage with out material moving to fast stirring the tank and moving sediment into the field. Cleaning a used field is not fun ask me how I know. Generally you have to totally rebuild it which if code people are involved want engineer stamped/approved plans. Do not even think of cutting a corner here in the Finger lakes watershed. Sand filters are a requirement and have to be maintained.
If you are doing it yourself do it right with the best information avaiable the first time. It saves headaches later. A well designed system properly installed will function for a very long time with only pump outs every 5-10 years depending on use and climate.
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Sorry if my comments were interpreted as slamming codes, inspections or skilled installations. Not my intent at all. My point was that in the case of our camp if we put in a new septic system it would be a standard residential capacity system and would cost a lot. Such a system would be no better for the environment than an oil drum for our uses. We would pay for some abstract idea of potential future uses and circumstances that are extremely unlikely to ever occur. At best you could say that we would have to pay to subsidize a hypothetical public good but pay for it privately.
I'm also not complaining about inspections. There are more than enough unknowing or simply irresponsible property owners to go around. Nor am I under-rating the importance of well-designed and skilled installations. Many of the home grown systems around here have worked well for over 20-years. I imagine the builders simply eye-balled things and concluded 'Well that should work.' By and large they did work and are still working even if the angles and leveling may not be quite right. However, these systems may not support city habits very well. Most people with home-grown systems continued to use in-door plumbing like the biffeys and gray water pits they were used to.
I imagine the 'car systems' used around here were actually old car bodies used as open bottomed secondary tanks. I have heard of aerobic systems that may be systems of last resort where conventional systems just don't work or can't be approved.
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I understand what you mean Tom. At our cottage near Apsley we had a pit toilet for years. We were never there that much, weekends and maybe one or two weeks per year and therefore with a little lime served well for 45 years.
We were finally required to install a new system which assumes some one is there full time. This costs a lot as it need to be pumped away up the steep slope away from the cottage.
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WOW -
We still have our outhouses !
You mean to tell me that there are new fangled inventions that "suck" away the "stuff"? Gol...ly Gee!
Not bad during most of the year, but watch out for bee season!
Willie H.
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I guess having a bee in a bonnet would be mild by comparison. My dad told a story about being charge of quarters during WWII. He decided to reduce the number of work details by asking the troops to throw a shovel of coal in the boiler when they went passed. Seems like the idea worked too well--too many shovel-fulls. The hot water went to steam and backed up into the cold water system. Somebody flushed and got steam. I don't recall if the guy was standing or not. If it were a sit-down, I'd probably prefer a bee.
I know you're joshing, but what has happened with the new codes here is that many waterfront properties can never have septic systems. The property has to have enough space for a leech field on top of riverbanks and back a minimum distance. People who are lucky enough to have the space can pump the stuff (bees and all) to a system on top. People without space are stuck with out-houses if they didn't already have a septic system (which probably shouldn't be there in the first place).
The unlucky ones took a big hit on their property values since the buildings can't be converted for full-time residential use. It probably did mess up a few retirement plans to waltz from city jobs to a cheap piece of paradise and watch sunsets forever. But maybe I don't have a lot of sympathy. I toured a house in the middle of a city that was entirely off-grid and met all codes. It had it's own electricity, water, septic and trash systems. All sorts of things can be done but paradise can get expensive. It's easier to crap in the river and let down-stream folks worry about it. Chicago did it for decades.
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Actually, TomG, we still do have the outhouses, mostly set behind barns and under apple trees and the like. When we need to move them, we get the new pit dug, then corral a few neighbors and move the house. I guess this was the initial or debut of what we know today as the porti-torti.
At the lake where my house is, there are many camps and cottages with the exact situations as you described TomG.
My house sits on land that once accomodated a hotel and dining hall at the lake. The septic tank, a whopper of 13.5 thousand gallon tank, sits in an adjacent lot across the town road. When I wanted to put in my own personal septic system, with a 1000 gal. tank, I was told that my clearances would be marginal at best. I have well over 100' in any given direction, not to mention clearance distance from the lake itself is some 200'.
The primary concern was the distance between the well and the proposed septic site. Still outside of the minimum distance requirements.
Last week, a well drill rig showed up at a neighboring camp. Somehow, the owner received permission to have a well drilled, within a 25' distance from three different leach fields and septic tanks located in a tringular configuration where the new well is about in the middle.
GO FIGURE! Though the design of a functioning leach field, is to supply potable water at the exit point, I certainly won't be drinking there water any time soon.
I have been installing septic systems, drainage systems, etc for many years, for many people, without problems. When I want to put one in for myself and process the papers, I am told I can't, yet the guy up the road can get away with these fiasco of a well. GO FIGURE!
Sometimes it is not WHAT you know, rather WHO.
Willie H.
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Well, pardon the expression, here is a follow up to my last posting on the septic / well situation up the street.
After enduring nearly a week of what seemed to be endless drilling noise, the rig stopped. No more noise! Yahoo!
Good for me, and the rest of my neighbors...not so good for the land/wellowner. The neighbors well is now set at 550+ feet, with a PINT recovery.
Now that is an expensive well, an expensive DRY well!
Though talk of "fracking" is looming, they sure have to go some to get a reasonable amount of recovery.
FYI,
Willie H.
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A neighbour within earshot had a well drilled to replace a dug well that was going dry (lot of that around here the past few years).
Lots of noise and smoke for days. A few days later the noise stopped. Story is that the driller got impatient and used some dynamite and then went back to drilling with a very expensive rotary bit. Rock shifted and trapped $10 or $20 thousand worth of equipment in the hole. The driller tried for several days to get the bit free and then nothing for weeks. Story was that the owner was worried he might have to pay for lost equipment. Some types of contracts with drillers are called 'easy-dig' contracts. The cost per foot is less than for regular contracts but costs go up if the hole has problems, and owners may be liable for equipment damage or loss.
It's worth knowing about down-side risk stories and really reading contracts before taking low cost drilling contract. Our neighbour could have paid for a well that was dry plus pay for lost equipment. The driller eventually did recover his stuff and the well is working so I guess everything worked out.
Willie's neighbour could end up having a real liability even if the well starts producing water. Things that don't come up to codes always can become problems. You can't do much work on them unless their brought up to code and future regulators may not be 'who you know'. Grandfathered non-complainant approvals may not transfer to future owners. At best you can't do much work on them without brining everything up to code. Besides, who'd want to buy such a property. It's real hard to believe that a poorly maintained septic system wouldn't start affecting even a deep well that's only 25' away. Actually I wouldn't buy any rural property without having an environmental inspection done. I can think of a dozen or so nightmares or potential nightmares from around here and several of the potentials were ours.
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UPDATE -
Here is an update to the ongoing saga of the new 550' well, perched between three septic systems, no more than 25' away...
Well, pardon the expression, the day started out bright, sunny ,and without alot of racket from the drill rig as the boys no longer were drilling now for about a week. As I sat on the porch, I wondered what the low pitch rumble was cresting over the knoll some 3/4 mile away.
OH NO! Here comes the well drilling crew again! I thought well at least they're not coming close to me again, as the neighbors all have their respective wells now. BUT WAIT A MINUTE...they're pulling in next door again!
I thought this was a bit strange as I watched them place the rig back atop the set well casing. I thought for a moment that it was a hydrofrac'ing unit...but it wasn't.
Long story short...it seems that the well drillers office never told the well drillers on the site that they had to put in a minimum of 125' of casing, due to the close proximity of the three septic systems. When they originally set the casing, they set one, 20' length and left. Now, they had to realign, and set five more on top. Still, 550' deep with a pint recovery makes for one expensive glass of water!
Willie H.
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Concrete tanks of any size are rarely used any more. The Big black and yellow plastic tanks are what everybody uses now and for good reason. CHEAP and LIGHT WEIGHT and easy to set. 4 inch corregated pipe with nylon net covering. Use pea rock on the bottom and you are all set. NO BRAINER when you get your drop set.
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