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Mississippi - state of mind
We had a couple of comments in another thread that concerning the MS state flag. Many of the statements in the post are misleading and others clearly incorrect. As I live on the AL MS border I thought a little history correction is in order.
MS had a referendum on the state flag in April 2001. The results were along the racial Mix in the state. For removal 36% against 64%.
The confederate flag changed in its short history. The battle flag was used for only 4 years and was not the confederate flag, but only the battle flag of the confederate. The original flag of MS was the blue bonnie, a star in a blue background adopted in 1810. In 1861 the blue bonnie was placed in the corner and the magnolia was added to a white background. This remained through the war and until 1894. We now have the current flag with the battle cross in the corner. Why was it changed?
The major corner stone of the 1860 election was the issue of slavery. When the Republicans won the seven highest slave holding states seceded. In these states the slave to free population was nearly one to one. In MS the ratio was about 1.25 slaves for each person and one half the families owned slaves. In the confederate south as a whole thirty one percent owned slaves. About forty six percent of the population in the confederate States were slaves.
In 1860 the per capita income of the whites in the southern states was double that of the northern none slave holding states. Basically you earned the wages of the slaves. The prospect of loosing half your wages was a strong motivator to go to war.
WW “For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery.”
Well with 46 percent of the population being a slave and one in three families owning one it seems unlikely that a southern soldier did not know what one was or believe they were not fighting to preserve their way of life, base on free labor.
WW “It shows the same type of disagreement to the Stars and Stripes as did the Stars and Stripes did to the Union Jack.”
What do you think happened to the people that flew the old red white and blue union flag after the revolution? About 10% of the people were forced to leave due to persecution and Lynchings.
WW “The Red and Gray is a Battle Flag, a flag that many thousands died defending. That is reason enough it should have respect.”
The Nazi German flag was also a flag that many died for a morally wrong cause. Is that reason enough to respect it? It is also used by racists is I guess this does not tarnish its function in your eyes either.
Ex 21:6 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.” The eighteenth and nineteenth century slavers bought and sold kidnapped people, these were not people who sold themselves into slavery.
Racism is alive and well in MS. My kids had a friend attacked with a shovel on the 4th of last month, in the middle of the day and at a festival. A 200+ 17 year old and his friend decided to try and take the head off my daughter’s friends 13 year old little brother (maybe 110 lb). He was just walking up the road with his sisters and my daughter. The boy is mulatto. Despite the a deep bruise on his back and a bunch of witnesses. The local sheriffs and police closed ranks and refused to do anything. I overhead the local police conspiring with the 17 year olds parents and said something. Naturally he offered to throw me in jail.
Basically many still believe they have the right to do what they please because of color of skin.
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Mississippi - state of mind
I'm walking down the street in one of the "ever so diverse" towns in central Jersey when I see a thugmobile with two negroes parked in my church's parking lot. The thugs are blasting their rap while a white stripper is performing right infront of their car. and there ain't a thing I can do about it. Had that happened in the blessed state of Mississippi, the neighbors would have called the cops and you know what would happen to the scum. Maybe that's why this sh*t doesn't happen in the south.
food for thought...
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters I find your topic interesting in that you say racism is still alive (technically all humans are a race, so we really aren't pitting one race against another since there is only one Race and that the Human Race). We are talking "Ethnicity".
Anywho, as I mentioned I'm a Michigan yankee working on the MS Gulf cleaning up Katrina (yes, still).
Nearly every day I have to knock on doors looking for work. I have been discriminated against not for my color, but from where I was born (and I have german and french roots) by dyed-in-the-wool MS locals who have told me to my face, "you ain't frum heeah--you all haven't done NUTHIN' fo' me--an' I don't give ANY wouk to ANYONE that ain't frum heeah". I tell them I understand, and they calm down a bit and shake my hand, and I never hear from them again.
Now keep in mind, I'm white, male, and 43 years old---and travelled 3600 miles total getting my equipment down here to help out (and of course pay my bills---I'm not a non-profit organization but it feels that way sometimes  ). What I think they're referring to is the Civil War. I've met numerous people from MS and Arkansas who are still living the War (well-to-do white males in their late 60's early 70's). We Yankees see it as History---get over it. You can't move forward if you can't get past your past.
That said, I have met many nice people down here, many of whom have opened their homes to me and allowed me to set up camp on their property (not always for free of course--we trade work for rent). This probably wouldn't happen in the north.
I really like it down heeah. Oddly, this place feels more like home than "home" does.
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Mississippi - state of mind
As a Christian and a Southerner there are many things that are part of these issues.
1) Slavery is or never was right.
2) Slavery has been a part of this world in most if not all countires at one time or another.
3) It is an issue addressed in the Bible more than one place.
4) For the most part those who went to Africa and first PURCHASED the BLACK slaves were Northern ship owners. Why are they given a clear bill on slavery?
5) In many rural circles of the South the "Colored" and "White" got along very well and respected each other. This was very true when my father who passed away in 1970 was farming.
6) It will surprise many to realize the race wars were worst for the most parts in Northern Cities than the South.
7) Racism is most often not caused by color of skin or accent, rather attitude.
8) I am not 100% sure but think you will find there is more "Black on Black" violence than White on Black violence. Just like there is more abuse by people you know than strangers.
9) Were there not also "white" slaves within this country in the North?
10) As long as a person wants to blame some one else for their failures they will be able to find a party to blame. They will themself be the biggest failure.
11) As to the Stars and Bars...today it has been hijacked by worst than the Southern Slave owner.
12) No doubt the slave owners profitted by the work of the slave, sort of like any employer expects to profit by the work of any employee.
13) The slave owner also had financial risk to provide for the needs of the slave different than an employee, you could not just lay them off, yes you might be able to sell them.
Please, do not get the idea in the least I think slavery of any kind is proper. It is not and never was. Just don't pick on it in one location or one time in history and turn a blind eye to it even today in our country. Look around you today at the slaves in the country of the United States of America. You can make a slave of a person in more ways than with the gun and sword. Look as such drugs, the ACLU and those who tell you can not think for yourself for is it the fault of someone who live over a hundred years ago.
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Mississippi - state of mind
earthwrks,
No doubt you have come across the term of "Damned Yankee". It comes from the attitude of so many from the North who for years and those today that go to great pains to tell the South how stupid we are.
Funny how such a smart person was so dumb to get right in the middle of really stupid people.
It is easy for me to tell the difference between a DY and a Northerner. It is attitude.
As to the difference in attitude, you need to realize any war the attitude is always different where the bleeding and killing took place compared to the land who sent soliders. I am not discounting the loss of many in the North here. Not trying to justify anything.
But if you were to go to Germany or Japan and ask their thoughs on WW II it will be much stronger than in the US. I am afraid that is something we do not understand in Iraq. We (the USA) think we are giving so much and we are but to them it is survival. The same for the South as not only lost people, we had our country destroyed and then invaded by the know it all Northern politican.
Again, please don't take any of this as support for slavery or any other I hate you because of such as accent or your name. A Northerner (or just plain Yankee) built my house and my oldest daughter's house. A great guy who did a great job. My youngest this week is moving into a house built by a lying DY! There are all types in any region or family.
For the sake of the world I am thankful this county did not break apart. It takes this total country with all it has to offer to make a difference.
I do thank God for our great county from the great South to the great North from us on the East coast to those on the golden West.
I think there are no better words than those of my Lord Jesus Christ here, "let him without sin cast the first stone". Pitcher up?
But, I do thank God for being blessed to be born in the South!
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Mississippi - state of mind
KT: "Funny how such a smart person was so dumb to get right in the middle of really stupid people."
I'm at a loss as to what these means. Are you referring to me?
As far slavery in the north, the automotive industry is a good example, employees ARE seen as property. 'Nuf said.
And I have never heard of notherners buying and selling slaves. Unless you're talking about the East Coast, then yes like Boston.
Further, it well documented that it was in fact the friends and families of the "africans" that sold them originally. It wasn't as though an american ship pulled into port and then abdcucted them and took thm back to america to be sold. They were sold by their own people.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
An African American (screw that) A balck man broke into my White senior citizens house and clocked him in the head with a house brick (121 stitches), He knew the man was white and he knew the man was over 80 yrs old before he broke into the house ( we all saw him walk thru the alley earlier in the day and look directly at the old man trimming his roses) later that night (it was 85 degrees) he came thru his window to take the mans wallet.
Why did he not go into the house next to this guys? Could it be because that person who lives in that house is black and about 40 yrs old???? Me thinks this thug was a black racist.
Number 2
Two 16 yr old white boys from my school ran out of gas on
the other side of town. They decided to walk home to get a can for gas (no cell phone and wouldnt you know it,,, all the pay phones in the ghetto were not functioning) They had to walk thru the central city where we live (about 25 blocks) They never made it! They were jumped by 4 black boys 13 years old and 300# a piece about 6 foot tall all of them were!! One white boy had a broken jaw and three busted ribs. The other lost all his front teeth.
WHY??? because they were white!
Please Peters with all due respect, anyone who wants to preach racism in this day and age can kiss my white ass!!
For the most part, your story about the cops conspiring against a black boy is bull shit.
Theres way more racism on the other side than what is coming from the white boys now a day! Is there white against black racism in this country? YES but only a fraction as much as the other way around, just walk thru a ghetto some after noon.
Think of it this way. Whats the chances of a black girl walking thru your a white neighborhood at about 9pm and getting thru pretty much un harmed? DAMM GOOD
Now whats the chances of a white girl walking thru the ghetto in your town at dusk and making it thru?
Dont kid yourself!
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
I surely do not know where you mustered your figures from. Would like to read them, I have shelves of civil War books here and I can not find your statistics.
The South provided much of the Raw Materials for the Industrial North. The South consumed what was made in the North, both depended heavily on the other.
Your percent of slaves doesn't mean a one on one TRUE ownership. Some Plantation owners or Dock owners near New Orleans may have owned hundreds. Are you aware of the term "White Trash"? They too were counted as slaves, yet they were very White. They made deals to come here and work under the same script as Blacks. The Blacks were treated far better than the White scripts or slaves, for the owners knew at the end of the term, the Black could get a cabin, 4 acres of land and never become a competitor but rather stay and work as a FREE SLAVE or a RELEASED FROM SCRIPT. All the owners knew the Blacks could NOT make it on their own, so it wasn't uncommon for the Blacks who had fullfilled their SCRIPTS to stay and continue to work. The Whites on the other hand, were usually worked to the death, starved and whatever possiblly to ensure they did NOT make it to the end of the contract to become Competition. They were referred to in some parts as Clay eaters, because they did indeed eat clay to stay alive. Today we use the term to describe the lowest of the Whites and the term is from a brutal past.
Anyhow if you have 100,000 Slaves and 100,000 people it DOES NOT mean that there is One Owner Per Slave as you so duly implied. Florida was a Confederate State and Missouri was a Slave State. Slave was a word that did NOT always mean what many precieve it to be. Back then many many were needed to harvest the crops on the large fields and they were referred to as field Hands in the 1860s. The South also controlled the Mississippi for anything that was to be shipped from the inner North, went down the Mississippi and to the Gulf Ports. The railroads changed all that later and the Chinese who worked the railroads were also referred to as Slaves in the counts. Slaves encompass many and not always were they in chains and being whipped. "Approximately one-fourth of the region's Whites owned slaves OR WERE IN A FAMILY that had slaves working for them. Owning over half of the slaves, about 45,000 planters controlled the government and economy of the southern states." This says something entirely different from your numbers. To be counted in the figure, I need only be a member of a family not have knowledge of slaves. 45,000 planters owned one half of all of the slaves. Economics was a big role, for the Large Slave Owners had Power and in a growing Congress that made a difference. Loyalties to the buyers had presence over Loyalty to your country. The South Exported as well. What countries helped the South in the civil War and why? More info for you "Most plantations were owner-operated and the planters themselves often worked in the fields. Of the total southern white population of 8,099,760 in 1860, only 384,000 owned slaves. Of these, 10,780 owned fifty or more. It was calculated that about 88 per cent of America's slave-owners owned twenty slaves or less.
The death-rate amongst slaves was high. To replace their losses, plantation owners encouraged the slaves to have children. Child-bearing started around the age of thirteen, and by twenty the women slaves would be expected to have four or five children. To encourage child-bearing some population owners promised women slaves their freedom after they had produced fifteen children.
The wealth of the South was concentrated in the hands of around a thousand families. These large landowners would usually own well over 100 slaves and relied heavily on overseers to run their plantations. In 1850 it was estimated that these thousand families had an income of about $50,000,000 while the remaining 660,000 families received only $60,000,000." http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASownership.htm
So the actions are really of the NOT SO MANY in the South and as far as the boys who died on the battlefield, I will still say 90 plus percent, did not own one and DID die for other reasons. Why? look at todays military. There are 300 million people in this country and about 1 million currently in uniform. Of the 1 million in uniform in any given year, only 150,000 are in harm's way. So 150,000 out of 300 million, I do NOT think for a minute that the FIGHTING BOYS are from Properpous families, meaning families that would be able to have Plantations or Slaves. Now make the country even MORE rural than now, elimate Railroads, Highways most forms of Commo and you will begin to understand my point. Regardless of how many people in the South owned slaves, the ones doing the dying did NOT.
The Confederate Battle Flag was indeed a Battle Flag an then there was the State Flags, the Divisional Flags, the Regimental Flags, the company Flags and then Banners etc. The State Flags flew with the Confederate Flag. Your point about the nazi Flag, pathetic. I am talking aout the Americans who died on American soil by fellow Americans. As far as I am concerned to address your point, I have NO PROBLEMs with the German Flag or Nazi Flag. I have a problem with Hitler, Goebbels, Henrich and so many others. The people are the problems, not the flags. Rommel served under the same flag and to any Good American Soldier, he is a man to be admired. Did he share Hitler's vision? No! as many did not. They were soldiers following orders. The Nazi Flag was destroyed by germany so they would not be reminded of the mistakes they made. The SS is a far more ruthless symbol.
I know you will argue with me about the symbol of a Flag, so does that mean you support Flag Desecreation? It doesn't matter what your views are, the Flag is sacred to those who have and are serving her. The Flag to me is Mountains, Streams, green grass and home, Applle Pie, Baseball, Hot dogs and freedom. To others, it is something else. I serve the flag and my views are second rate to those who have not served it. How funny. they feel they are entitled under free Speech to shit on it, piss on it or whaever. your views please, you seem to hold no sacredness in a flag.
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Mississippi - state of mind
I was told by some higher educated MS resisdents that the reason I was shunned by the older white guys who didn't want this Yankee around was for one reason: The guys didn't want my Northern views put down their throats. I asked what exactly that meant. Much to my astonishment hey replied "slavery"---huh? Slavery? I thought we were past that? But it still pervaids the last generation's thoughts that the North tried shove their way of life on the South---and that's what they I was here to do. Where does this stuff come from? Are there stories that are apssed down to the generations? Is it a frame of mind? Are these guys on drugs? Please, someone give me some insight to this.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Earth
It is an EXCUSE and most have no idea what they are impying, they just find it COOL to be hateful of the North. Rebel has a ring to it, Yankee does NOT.
I hear every day with the Democrats and the Republicans. Most have no clue why they hate President Bush only that he is a Republican and therefore he has to be hated.
The people who act that way are puppets, controlled by a frenzy and no brain cells to allow them to think for themselves or to even try reasoning.
Street gangs, another example. they kill over colors or symbols or hoods. They do not know the other guys, never tried to go over and have dinner with them, play some ball, nope! got to be Kool got to pack some ice and kill them.
These people were not around for the 1860s have no clue of the entire picture, their feeble little minds say it is about Slavery and the North wants to take our blackies away. Damn. talk about lack of brain cells. do you really beleive for an instant that the idiot who gave you the reply had enough intelligence to explain the Civil War to you? or count to 100?
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