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America The Greatest Country on Earth
As a statistician I summarize as follows (this is a text book case of how not to conduct a survey and make inferences for the population as a whole): America is the greatest place on earth if you are a middle-aged property owning, tractor driving, white christian male with a love for guns and the military in general. Conduct the same survey on a web site dedicated to pot smoking hippies seeking canibis grow techniques and how to avoid the law and I would be suprized if you got the same answer. Just because everyone agrees does not make it necessarily so.
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
The fundamental problem with Murf’s analogy is that for decades there have been several anti American countries that were run by dictators. The majority of them were / are ruthless and all the bad things he stated.
Don’t forget that in Sadam’s case he was the US lacky of the Middle East for a long time and to a large extend under US air control.
The argument could be made that if the people of Iraq were so desperate to rise up, the opportunity was certainly there.
Try a different analogy.
Btw Ann, we don't all agree.
America was once a great country, has the potential to be a great country but is quickly on it's way to be coming a third world country.
That's my opinion.
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
WW, thank you.
Denis, the problem is, it's NOT the Iraqi's saying go home, this is not your fight, it's the pions of and zealots who are the remnants of the dictatorship!!!
Witness the recent highly succesful, but not widely reported because it wasn't sensational enough, raids and arrests made because of intel. given to the Allies by everyday people.
All you have to do is watch the news footage, look at all the happy people, cheering and welcoming the Allied forces, there are only a few insurgents, but that's all it takes to fill CNN's reports......
There's what? About 150,00 people (troops & Civilians) in Iraq now? So if "Iraq" doesn't want us there, why so (relatively) few deaths or even attacks?
JDCman, yes there have been, and continue to be some bad spots, but they are under pressure to change, just like Iraq was, Iran for example, and they can either change, or push their luck just a little too far like Saddam did.
Osama was fighting with weapons supplied by the US to try and drive out the Soviets.
The Shah of Iran was given a the only US Intaglio-type currency printing press. Want to guess where all the high quality conterfeit money is coming from?
While we're putting together this list, let's not forget other places like China, if they ever get thier Army on their bicycles and pointed towards the US be sure to say "Thank you come again!" like the nice man at Wally World that funded them does!!
Best of luck.
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
Ann
This country is a fantastic country whether you are a Pot smoking hippie or a tractor driver. Some just take longer to realize how well they have it. Sometimes it takes a loss of some of your freedoms for you to realize just how fortunate you were before. People muture and as they do their attitudes and values of life do as well. The country does't change for the Tractor driver, it is the same country. You will get out of it, exactly what you put into it. If you put nothing into it, to improve it or to help it, then you will get the same in return.
JDC
you said
"The argument could be made that if the people of Iraq were so desperate to rise up, the opportunity was certainly there." wasit really? How do rise up against a Dictator who controls and Army and has tanks and guns and people working for him just like the SS? You have no guns to defend your self or even to arm yourself. You do not know who you can trust and who you can't because many among you are on Saddam's payroll. How do you organize when the odds are so great against you? it was tried and the executions were moments after the trials. These people lived a fear you can only sit and TRY to imagine and still never be close to what it was like.
You can't please all of the people all of the time you can please some of the people some of the time. The military is made of the people who want to do something and they are lead by the people who want to do something and my suggestions has always been if you do not want to be involved, you don't have to. We don't draft anymore. If you want Peace I suggest you spend some time with the Peace Corps and see if you gain any ground. If you care not to be involved period and only make judgements on others performance, I would suggest stay on the couch in front of the boob tube. Lead, Follow or get the Hell out of the way. (sorry Murf, stole that from the 82nd Airborne)
Saddam was NEVER a U.S. Lacky. Was never involved with the U.S. you need to go and do some research. He was a Ba'ath member who idolized Hitler and the SS and grew from support from France and later Russia. The weapons in Iraq are French and Russian, it was Russian Sciencetists working with Saddam. Saddam stood against the U.S. from day one because we supported Isreal.
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
Wing,
You’re truly a man of passion, but sometimes passion without thought is pretty silly. But then I forgot, you are a sales man.
I have to admit my memory isn’t as good as it use to be. But there was this little war back in the ‘80’s that involved Iraq and Iran. We did have a vested in interest in supporting Iraq and we did supply biological,chemical and other technologies.
Why don’t you do some research and report back. How about that famous handshake? Ah that’s nothing --- forget about it.
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
JDC
Famous handshake? there was NO FAMOUS handshake, you can call it what you want, but if was far from famous and had no more meaning than a handshake with Ho Chi Minh or Nikta Kruschev. For Christs sake man, quit trying to make mountains out of little tiny ant hills. Rumsfield shook his hand. Hell I have shaken hands of people I have hated and smiled too. Big friggin deal. History is full of such hand shakes, now you are trying to make a DeVinci Code link to the past and claim it had connections? Good God, I have heard weak arguements before but you are running a close second.
I did very little research after reading your post but here is a sentence from a source and I will tell you it was Steven Shalom, hmmmm "France became the major source of Iraq's high-tech weaponry, in no small part to protect its financial stake in that country. The Soviet Union was Iraq's largest weapon's supplier, while jockeying for influence in both capitals. Israel provided arms to Iran, hoping to bleed the combatants by prolonging the war. And at least ten nations sold arms to both of the warring sides."
Now JDC if you want to quote a reliable source for your accusations, i will gladly go and read them. I am not interested in the views of a media reporter or the such and if you would care to provide real proof that the U.S. Govt s "had a vested in interest in supporting Iraq and we did supply biological,chemical and other technologies."
We get no oil to speak of from Iraq or Iran and never have, so what is the vested interest you refer to? (Now if a company in the U.S. did, that is NOT the govt. If that bothers you than Clinton giving 600 Super Computers, the W-88 Nuclear multi strike warhead and technology for delivery systems, to China, should have you rolling on the floor in fits of rage.)Going after a dictator who had the 4th largest Army in the world? Turning Iraq against Khomeni? Yeah! the U.S. plays cards with countries in the interest of World Security. Not in personnal gain. But if you have other evidence, I would like to read it. I am not interested in a writer's opinion and only facts will be considered.
So as I said before, do some research and come back when you have a good arguement, here say or opinion is not a basis for a good arguement. Steven Shalom is a NOBODY and I found NO evidence that the U.S. was anything close to what you say.
And as I said before, if you do not wear the uniform, do not be quick to judge those who do, we do not think like you and don't want to. No! we are not brain-washed, we chose in our lives to do something and we are. We have always been judged by those who sit and jump to conclusions and dream of a fantasy world that does not exsist. Freedom has to be fought for and people die in fights. Now here is some amusing numbers for you, if the number of killed in Iraq is what bothers you then you should research how many U.S. citizens die each and every year in U.S. Hospitals. Now to make it more interesting change the word die into killed. You will find the number to be about 175,000. Yes! that is right 175,000 and to get you started since death bothers you so much, I will give you the first web site, written by doctors and published in JAMA http://www.healingdaily.com/Doctors-Are-The-Third-Leading-Cause-of-Death-in-the-US.htm
If the reports on the American dead isn't what bothers you, then what is your problem? Another little fact, more die each year from drowning in swiming pools than Americans die in Iraq. Almost as many die from falling down stairs as have died annually in Iraq. So there are many other death statistics that you JDC could get up off your ass and do something about. Right here in the U.S. no uniform required, no oathes just maybe some volunteer work. Maybe you could help some of the elderly so they don't fall down stairs and become the next victim or help put up fences around pools etc. Put your energy to work where it could do some good and quit bitching about stuff you or I have no ability or entitlement to know. Better yet if you want entitlement, then that would take years to gain the clearances, the faith of the others to trust you with such information and then you would also have to be sworn to secrecy and live a second life totally for your country.
JDC your brain could not process anywhere enough of the data that you demand to know. You think World Affairs and International Security is going to be published in Newsweek? Do you think if you knew something you little ole JDC in anywheres USA is going to be able to do anything about it? do you think you could ever know all you think you ever need to know and be happy? Are you going to say I am a puppet for not wanting to know?  , I know my limitations and I don't need to know how much water is behind the damn, only that there isn't any cracks. I leave the rest to the Engineers and I am usre you do as well. Do you worry about the bridges when you cross them? No because you have faith that everything was done right and that the Govt inspected it as well. So why do you attack the govt over issues you have no knowledge or true understsanding of?
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
Wing,
Sometimes, you ramble on like an idiot. Your problem is not curiosity; it’s the lack there of and the tendency towards "myopicness".
Re-read some of the stuff you’ve written.
Yes we did have a vested interest in pitting Iraq against Iran.
Re this crap about who supports this country more:
I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that you remained in service for as long as you did because:
a) You were just stupid and liked getting your teeth kicked in
b) You really didn’t have enough skills to do anything else.
And btw, if you have retired from the military I’m contributing to your wages. So don’t be so quick to bite the hand that feeds you.
Based on your statements about your income, I don’t make any 12 –15 X your income but my tax liability is at least that.
People like me support slackers like you who believe the system owes them something. You complain about Hilary and the social liberals, but you are sure willing to consume the entitlements provided by their rampant socialistic policies.
This country can survive a grave terrorist attack. Its demise will be as a result of poor economic polices. There’s tens of millions of Americans just like you, all looking for that free ride and unwilling to carry their fiscal load.
So don’t start yapping to me about how you support this country. Meaningful support is more than just waving the flag; it takes thought, the will and fortitude to do the right thing.
If I had my way, I would build that damn wall and kick all the scum bucket slackers like you out on to the other side.
Btw, another difference between you and I, is that I can calculate the hydrostatic pressures behind that dam, design one if I had to and make intelligent decisions about how to use it.
Before you start a rambling response think about what I’m saying.
And also bare in mind, what does truly make this country grand is the diversity of people that live here and not the lack there of.
The dispute you and I have is about the policies that will allow the run to continue.
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
JDC
Anyone who has to pat their own shoulder has some serious complexes.
Slacker? You call me a slacker? How very interesting, you hand does not feed me, so get a life and get off your lazy ass and make something of yourself other than a chronic complainer. I owe you nothing and you have probably been a taker your entire life. So you pay taxes well goody for you, so don't I and you have no glue how much I pay, so quit trying to measure a person by their net worth, you won't succeed very well. I am a salesman now out of choice and have done many things in my life, I do not feel the need to compare my life to yours and I really don't care if your dick is bigger. Whoppie for you.
Enjoy your life, I see you could not carry on an intelligent conversation for very long, I know I know my post was all rambling, of course it was to someone who has shit for brains.
Nice talking to you ya JDC. You need to gt a life. I am not retired yet.... You haven't paid very close attention at all now have you?
Good day and you will be ignored by me, please return the courtesy.
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
jdcman,
After reading through your last post............. I suppose I would be one of those "scum bucket slackers" since I am a retired Chief Warrant Officer Aviator of 21 years service, a war veteran, and a disabled veteran.
By your own words, it is apparent to anyone that you hold these folks in utter contempt and loathing as well as feel every military veteran or retiree, disabled, dead or alive falls into your so called "scum bucket slackers" category.
Your words come not only as a shock but an embarrasment to me that you are on the same website with me not to mention the same thread espousing such disrespect to our military veterans and active duty on MEMORIAL DAY!!!!!! Of all days!!!!!!
You should hang your head in shame!
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America The Greatest Country on Earth
Sorry you feel that way Chief, re-read my post.
Some of my post is a carry over from a prior discussion re the socialistic nature of the tax codes. Wing has a position, so do I.
Here’s my points to Wing:
Wearing a uniform isn’t a prerequisite for Patriotism.
Plenty of people make contributions in other ways. Their opinions are just as valid. Never said anything about people of service, just Wing. All based on his personal comments and my interpretation of those.
Socialism is bipartisan. Liberals and the Democratic Party don’t have sole claim.
The ultimate “down bringing” of this country will be poor economics, not terrorism.
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05-26-2006, 12:55 
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